CR 500 questions

[Dodd]

I'm thinking about putting together a 500cc 2 stroke track bike this winter for track days and the occasional race this season out at HPR. Thinking this would be a cheap fun way to get back at it after a year or so of sitting on the bench.

I did some research and found a fella named Chuck Shettsline ran a CR 500 in 09, I remember seeing him out at Pueblo. If I remember correctly, I read in the fourms that he ran this bike for several years. Does anyone have contact info for him? I'd like to pick his brain.

And any other info from anyone that has experience with big 2 strokes and road tracks.

Thanks-
Dodd Jacobsen

[JohnGarc]

Go for it man.. I built a DT400 / CB350 hybrid... It was fun in the sun and was excellent handling for track duties.. Plus it was cheap and hella fun. Let me know if you need any help.

[jgixxer1]

Do it!! They are a lot of fun. I had one last year. Never did a race but several trackdays at PMI. I'm not by any means fast, but after riding a session on the cr500, then jumping on my zx6r for the next session, I was shaving seconds off my zx6r lap times. I think it made me a better rider much quicker. Unfortunately, I had to sell it but have been looking at another one. I thought mine was something special, but this one shits on my old one.

This one has full Ohlins!! You can't build a bike like this for what this guy is asking. $10,000 in the build and he only wants $3250!! And it has a title which is priceless. You can't even find a clean one in dirt trim for under $2k. This one has 3k in suspension 2k+ in wheels and brakes. Has motor work done and a $500 lighting coil. I think the bajadesigns coil puts out 180w. You can run some serious lighting with 180w. I checked with uship.com and you can have it shipped for about $375. Taxes are coming and I'm gunna get this bike or a Husaberg fs650 supermoto. Leaning more towards the Berg but can't decide. Jump on it before someone else does or before I do. I would love for an MRA guy to buy it so I could see it in person. Buy it so I don't have to fight with myself over the Berg or the CR. Here's a link.

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=274422&highlight=cr500

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

A good place for technical info (like parts diagrams & year swapping) check out http://cr500riders.com/

[Dodd]

Thanks for you guys input- I did see that CR in the WERA boards, but decided I'm going to build my own, trying to keep cost "Reasonable" by doing all my own work. Plus I have a 5 week old at home, so if I'm not at work, I'm here and needed something to do to keep from going bonkers.

I picked up a 1991 2 owner KX500 the other day from a guy out of the FC area. I was pleasantly surprised to see how good of shape it was for a 20 yo dirt bike. Straight frame, starts in 2 kicks with a healthy idle, etc.

I took it home and having never turned a wrench on a dirt bike, was able to get it to the frame in under 5 hours, with cataloging, documenting and sorting every stinkin' nut that came off it, so I can put it back together.

I took the frame, subframe and swing arm to the wash today to get the grime off, then its on to media blast it and then powder coat.

My plan is somewhat simple- 17" supermoto wheels, prob. some warp9's or a good used set of Excel's. A decent front brake, MC and some slicks. I want it to look clean and uncluttered, with no flashy paint or gadgets. All black plastics with a black frame. In the saving money front I'm going to keep the stock forks and shock, and I'll rebuild them w/ race tech type 1 valves, and some new springs. I've never done that either, so all of this is as much a learning experience as it is to make something to kill mosquito's out at HPR...

As for the motor, a solid re-build, new bearings and the such. I'm going to have the crank balanced to keep it from shaking itself to death, a good con rod and good piston and thats about it. Oh and a high rpm power pipe- used if I can find it. I can only get away with so much gearing, but I'm aware of that.

My initial questions- I could most likely get a 5 inch rear wheel in the swingarm, from what I've read which will allow me to run a 160 rear (And make take off's easier to come by) plus give a bigger contact patch. BUT I would have to shim the rear axle to the right and build some kind of chain deflector to keep the chain from eating the tire. I'm wondering if going with a 4 1/2 or 4 1/4 and I'm assuming a 150 will give me enough rear tire to keep the rubber side down-

Also for now- I live up in the frozen north (Grand County) and there is no place to get any media blasting done. Having the problem that I cant be running down to Denver every day off, I'm wondering if buying a media gun from like HF would be a worthy investment. I looked today, and I can get a mid-range gun for $120, and a bag of walnut shell powder shipped free for less than $150. I have access to big compressors to run it, so I don't know.

I thought about posting up pics as the build progresses, if anyone is interested. Also, who in the club can point me toward a good racer friendly powder coater?

Dodd

[ducati7044]

I've raced a cr500 for years. Chuck and I raced together many times. They are fun. I mainly race mine with AHRMA. However last year I raced the last race of the mra season at HPR. Even with a cold seized motor I still did well! Mine has been highly modified over the years. 70+ rear wheel HP
16 tooth front sprocket, ported, pipe, 10 map vortex ignition, etc. etc. If they're built right the motors are pretty bullet proof.

[Dodd]

Great! I'm looking forward to it. Should be a hoot. I remember seeing Chuck blasting around on his CR and thinking that looks like fun-

Dodd

[jgixxer1]

With what you want to do to the bike, plus the cost of the bike, sounds like you'll have about $3k in it easy by the time you're done with it; when there is a bike ready to go with ohlins and built motor for that much. You will be more proud of the bike though knowing that you built it yourself.

As far as running a 5" rear wheel, no need to shim rear axle or get custom spacers made. Just fit it up and offset the rim by loosening sprocket side spokes a 1/4 turn, then tightening rotor side spokes 1/4 turn until you get desired offset. And you can also use washers to shim the front and rear sprockets. Or flip the front sprocket. I don't know what the kx500 one looks like but I just flipped the front and shimmed the back on my cr.

I would go with the 5" rear if I was gonna do it again. I had 4.25" warp9 on mine and ran a michelin power one 150/60 and I couldn't get rid of the chicken strips at the track. About a 1/4". When I would go past that the rear end would step out due to the profile being too pinched on that rim. Other tires may be different. 4.5" rear would have been perfect for the power one,150/60.

[Dodd]

Good info. Yes I plan on running Michelin slicks- and or what ever take offs I can get from fellas or gals running 160's. Great thanks guys, I'm getting really pumped to do this.

Dodd

[JWinter]

I put 4 1/4" rear warp 9 on my CRF 450 and I am using a 150 DOT rear and I had to shave off the edge of the tire for chain clearance. I have raced against Chuck for years and he had his bike set-up pretty well. Good luck with your project and I hope to see you on the grid for Colorado Class.

Jeff

[Dodd]

Sounds good. I spent 30 minutes on the phone with Woody today working out the wheel issues. Looks like at this point I'm going to have Woody's boys lace up a set of 17" hoops on the stock hubs. Its getting to difficult to source hubs for such an old bike.

Just got done with the paint on the frame, subframe and swing arm- its coming along!

[Bartman]

Go for a 5" rim if at all possible, it makes a huge difference. I had a 4.25 and a 5" on my CRF and would never go back to a 4.25.

[Dodd]

Got it- thanks Bart

[jgixxer1]

I also had to shave my 4.25" on my cr500 with a 150 DOT. Actually didn't shave it; the chain did all the work. I couldn't use that 1/4" of the tire any way; too pinched. That was when I read about offseting rim with spoke adjustments, but got rid of the bike before I did anything.

I talked to Chuck one time in the pits about his bike. He had a 5'' rear with a 165 slick and zero chain rub. He had rim offset and sprockets spaced with chain guide removed. He also had Madman engineering tranny gear which spaces out 3rd, 4th, and 5th. With 15/39 gearing I could only pull 105mph. He had the same 15/39 but could pull 120mph with the Madman kit. I looked it up and its $800 for the parts.

There's a guy named Rick Pearce who races a cr500 in AMA Supermoto Unlimited class. He runs a 5.5" rim with a 170 or 180 series slick. He had his swingarm notched and rewelded with aluminum plate. I seen a pic of it somewhere. If I can find the link I'll post it. That's going to great lengths and probably pretty pricey unless you know a competent welder that can weld aluminum, but well worth it.



p.s. just took delivery on that 650 berg mentioned earlier. It will walk my old 500 easy. Been wanting to do some mra stuff for the last 2 seasons. hopefully this will be the year. for cost reasons I'll probably have to get smoked by the 600's in superstreet first then get my license and meet you guys in colorado class.

[Dodd]

Nice!

Yea I was thinking about trying to find a way to space out the gearing, but in the interest of keeping it cheap, I'll prob. just stick to the stock stuff.

I'm sure I'll get my doors blown off in the CO class on the big straights but oh well. It will be nice to just get a race or two in this season. And if not, plenty of track days.

Woody from WWW told me that he sponsored Chuck for years, so I'm looking forward to what he has to tell me about building one of these.

Thanks for all the input, and if you find that swing arm post the pic. I do know some good aluminum welders-

Dodd

[jgixxer1]

Here's a link to notching the swingarm and there is another link within the link. I"m doing all this from my phone and the pics on the forum didn't show up. Maybe they will from a computer.

http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?4223-Swingarm-Notching-CR500-Notch-5-quot-wheel

[Dodd]

Nice. I ordered a set of wheels from WWW today, went with the 5 inch rear. Once I get it back and can mock it up with the chain I'll see what I have to deal with.

Its coming along nicely!

[ducati7044]

I'm glad to see you still working on this project. I'm going to be racing my cr500 at the end of March with AHRMA in Texas. I hope to race with you in the MRA this year! :)

[Dodd]

Its coming along- Once I get the wheels put on, and the motor back in for a mock up I can see what I have to deal with for rear wheel clearance, and radiator room. I tossed the stockers, they were beat to death and was thinking about grafting in a smaller 500, 600 CC full radiator in front of the down tube. With the down sizing of the front wheel, I've got a good deal more room.

What are you running on your CR?

Dodd

[ducati7044]

I'm running stock radiators with the plastic rock guards removed for more cooling. I also am using a 4.25 inch rear wheel with 150 rubber. The chain cuts into it horribly. It looks worse than the actual damage done. I change rubber pretty often so it's not a big deal. Onlookers are shocked! I've run this bike from Daytona to Willow and have never overheated. Anymore I don't ride it enough to f#ck around with offsetting the rear wheel. Hell I'm lucky if I race it twice a year anymore. It does good at HPR. Before I cold seized it...(my fault) I was running 2.06's. And that was my first time there.

[Dodd]

Well if you never over heated a tuned motor, I'm sure I can get away with stockers for a stock motor. Thanks, that makes less stuff to do-

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Do you plan on doing any type of aerodynamic mods? Elimination of the front fender? clip ons? Cutting the radiator shrouds? Are you shortening the suspension?
Yes, I have a million questions. We are building a KX 125 to possibly run in the colorado class later this year. We can build it as a supermoto bike but we are curious as to any changes we would need to make for the higher speeds for tracks such as High Plains

[ducati7044]

On my bike Linderman redid my suspension. Lowered it. I also run a little bikini fairing off of an S1 Buell. I cut down the radiator shrouds and use renthal bars. I tried clip-ons once just for the hell of it!!! WHOAH! It was FUNKY! I had to go back to the renthals. I still have the front fender on it. The one big modification I did was have Jemco make me a down pipe for it. Really opened up the top end. At Portland last year I was radared at 131 mph. No lie! SV650's couldn't pull me on the 7/8 mile straight.

[Dodd]

Holycrap! 131 on a dirt bike? crazy! As for my build, I am trying to keep it under 3K- For plastics I'm running stock stuff (UFO) with what I believe is a kx 250 front sumo fender. I thought about lowering it, but in the interest of saving bucks I'm just revalving and respringing the front and a new valve in the rear. I'm hoping just to have it built and tuned in time for one race- even if its the last.

I didn't race last year, so I'm most likley going to have to take the class again, and then convince the rider director to let me go expert so I can run in the CO class. Lots to do!

Hopefully the wheels will be ready this thurs. when I'm down in town. Then if I can get some used rubber I can do a final suspension mock up and see what I can get away with.

[jgixxer1]

Colorado class requires expert status? If I can't run that class with a novice license, what class is a supermoto competitive in that a novice can run?

Not trying thread jack; seems like it pertains to this thread and don't want to start a new thread for a one post answer.

[T Baggins]

Colorado class requires expert status? If I can't run that class with a novice license, what class is a supermoto competitive in that a novice can run?

Not trying thread jack; seems like it pertains to this thread and don't want to start a new thread for a one post answer.

The new rider director has discretion in allowing novices to ride in expert classes. Basically if you're not a total hazard, and it's not something like Middleweight Superbike - he'll typically allow it.

[ducati7044]

When I first started racing with the MRA, I think Roosevelt was still president, we had the Colorado Class back then. Even then I was allowed to race in the class as a novice. I think with all of the ex250's it's going to be a fantastic venue. I'm so looking forward to it. At the last race at HPR last year we had over 20 bikes on the grid. This year should be even better.
The MRA is such a well run, fair organization, as Tony as said, unless your a total moron out there I wouldn't think it would be a problem to race the class as a novice.

[ducati7044]

Hey Dodd. If you want to see pictures of my bike, check it out on my Facebook page. Mark Hoyt, Bresnan Communications. It'll give you a visual of what we've been talking about.

[Jon]

Yeah they used to call it Formula Colorado and we all remember Ratt S. dominating it then along came tire warmers, trailers, transponders, George Bush.........

[Dodd]

Thanks Tony- Also, what would you suggest if a fella is only going to race once or twice this year, and in only one class go ahead and buy a full license or just one on what ever weekend he gets out? (PS I finally killed that super heavy bad ass Danish coffee table you sold me years ago, I guess you can only take those things apart so many times)

Mark- you my man have some very nice stuff there, and I see we also share a passion for the red bikes. I dig the simplicity of your CR- I may have to try to do something like that with the KX.

Build progresses. W/ the baby here, I only get a chance to get to Denver once a month or so and I'm headed down tomorrow. Hopefully the wheels will be done tomorrow, got a line on used rubber for mocking up purposes (Thanks Dave) and the plastics will be in. Pipe and dampener will be here Friday.

Should have a full mock up of the finished product on Saturday. Then its time to tear into the suspension and motor-

[Dodd]

OH! and I need some stock KX500 radiators if anyone has some that aren't completely destroyed!

Dodd

[T Baggins]

Sorry to hear the coffee table has finally passed... it was a good dog.

One weekend licenses are $50, so if you think you'll make it out 3 times, then it makes sense to go full license. Plus, if you don't have a license you have to pay to get in at the gate which is an additional $10.

If you're coming twice, it's $120 vs. $150 for the season license... but if you don't license up fully - then you don't get to vote for the poor suckers, um I mean kind folks who lead this fine organization.

Up to you man... but I bet once you get a few laps on that beast you're gonna be one of the guys to beat in Colo Class - and you know how it is once you get in the points....

[Dodd]

Full license it is. Now I have to see if my number is still open and holler at the NRD. Will I have to complete and pay for the whole newbie class, or could I roll out and demonstrate a working knowledge of race procedure safety and policy? I raced w/ out incident (Save a few crashes) for 3 years, and have only been out one season-

PS I think I can save the table, but its going to involve some new all thread and some inventive patching-

Dodd

[T Baggins]

You've got a couple years of inactivity before you have to take the class over - and even then it is at the NRD discretion. It's covered somewhere in the rulebook I'm sure, but I wouldn't know because the rules don't apply to me anyway... :lol:

[jgixxer1]

Would anyone that rides a single care to share average lap times at each track?

I've only ridden PMP and did a 1:50 on a cr5. Will be heading up to HPR in march for some winter pricing action and want to have something to compare with.

[Dodd]

I think Mark said he was turning 2.06-

Anywhoo- If anyone is interested here are some pics of the build over the last month or so,

[img]http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/003.jpg

Here is the KX right after I brought it home, sitting next to Gabriella who is not so happy to have another project in her garage

[img]http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/026.jpg

Half torn down

[img]http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/DSCF2438.jpg

After paint and a mock up

[img]http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/DSCF2451.jpg

Further mock up

[img]http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/DSCF2456.jpg

With a spankin' set of rad wheels by Woodies

[img]http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/DSCF2462.jpg

Here is where I'm at so far. I need to trim down the front fender, figgure out the brakes, rear wheel spacing (5") rear wheel and get with Dave ref. the suspension. Hopefully, funds dependant, I should have it on the track with in 2 months or so.

Dodd

[jgixxer1]

That's sweeet!! Can't wait to see it go. It looked beat down in the first pic. Amazing what some paint and new plastic will do. I like the blue forks on all black.

[dave.gallant]

http://www.12pointracing.com/gallery/d/1793-2/P1010332.jpg

If you can get it geared even close, you will love the bike on the track. I loved mined.

[Dodd]

Thanks guys-

Dave, what gearing did you run on the big tracks? a 15T is about the biggest counter sprocket I can get away with. As for the rear, the sky's the limit as I've found plenty of places that will build what you need for fairly cheap. I was thinking a 40, or 42. That would put me one up in the front and 7 down on the rear from stock.

Also, I see you were running the stock air box. I was going to just run a pod filter to save weight and simplify things. Thoughts? This is my first delve into 2 strokes and I'm still learning.

I got a nice used Pro Circuit pipe, and have a FMF muffler I'm going to take the spark arrester out of and re-pack.

I'm talking to Dave (IRDAVE) about shortening the suspension and re-valving it. As for the motor, Its a strong runner that started on the second kick at 9000' in 20 degree temps. I think a simple re-build and having the crank balanced to keep it from shaking itself apart will do, and save bucks.

Anyone else who is reading this and has any ideas I would love all the info I can get my paws on.

Dodd

[Bueller999]

Here is a gearing calculator ha works pretty good and will take the "gearing" of the tire into the calculations, there is data for a 2002 KX 500 in the database.

http://www.gearingcommander.com/

[Dodd]

Thank you sir

[jgixxer1]

Definitly want to go smaller than 42 in the rear. I had a 15/39 on the cr5 and it left something to be desired in terms of top speed. Maybe the internal gearing is better on the kx for top speed though, IDK. 16 and 39 was the biggest/smallest anyone sold for the cr. I know they are different bikes/rear hubs and bolt hole diameter, but just for reference, 36T was the smallest I could go before the chain would start to get into the bolts. Sprocket Specialists said they would make me one, but I got rid of the bike before I could try one out. If you can get away with putting a 16 on front, do it. Then you could go with a 39 or 40 rear and not have to get one specially made. Some guys with cr's were doing it. Had to flip the counter sprocket(more offset on one side), run without the case saver and do a little grinding on the case in front of the sprocket.

Also, with smaller sprocket out back, you may want to order an extra chain sliders to have it on hand. My bike ate thru one of them down to the swingarm in one summer of street riding and 4 trackdays.

[jgixxer1]

Here's some pics of some baddass hondas!! These are what got me motivated on my cr5 project. I already had the monobike look; my next step was to get an Eric Gorr roadrace port, Jemco downpipe, and I wanted a rear wheel from a 250gp bike (I think that's what it is, that or an F3) so I could run smaller rear sprockets. Some of these bikes look like they are running 30T rears. From what I read 130mph was the norm for the old school cr500 monobikes. I wish I could find more info on them or some videos. I also wish I knew some foreign languages cause I'm sure there's a wealth of knowledge out there on 2-stroke single roadrace bikes but its all in another language. Anyway, here's some links to drool over. The #35 bike in the top row even has custom rearsets! That's f'n awesome!!

And a pic of mine before and after just for the hell of it.

http://sickestbikes.dyndns.org/categories.php?marque=14&modele=65

http://www.google.com/m/search?site=images&source=mog&gl=us&q=cr500%20monobike

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv76/jgixxer1/DSC0154312.jpg
http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv76/jgixxer1/20090225165505.jpg
http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv76/jgixxer1/IMG00010-20090820-1749.jpg

[jgixxer1]

Is this thing ready yet? Are you entered in any classes for Saturday? I wanna see this thing go.

[Dodd]

Its getting really close. Bart hooked me up w/ a machinist to do the front brake caliper re-locator which I installed today. I'm still trying to get the shimming just right- because if the caliper isn't dead nuts straight on the rotor, I loose brake pressure (4 pot caliper, they have to have equal resistance to press equally together, or so it seems, something I just learned today) The new bracket is just a bit off, so once I get the right combo of shims to hold the caliper in its happy place it will work great.

But, I was able to take it down the street today, seemed to track straight and run well- even with the 15F 42R and at 9000 ft. elevation it would pull the front wheel up when it hit the pipe in second gear.

I'm still having some spacing issues with the rear wheel. Its in there, but I've only got 2-2 1/2 Mil. clearance on the brake side, and 2-4 mil. clearance from the chain. Its in a little crooked, but again it seems to be tracking straight (As much as 20 year old dirt bike can)

Hopefully I'll get the brake set and take it down to IMI early this week if the weather cooperates. Set the chassis, then pull it all apart again to go through the motor.

So I won't be racing this weekend, but I might come out to scope out what else is running in the Co. Class and say hi to some people I haven't seen in a year or two.

It looks good, in a goofy "What the hell is that and why is it at a roadrace track" kinda way. I dig it, and have been inspired by Tony's crazy paint job- I may have to do some thing similar. I'll try to post up some pics.

[Dodd]

Here are some pictures- Got the brake issues worked out today. Hoping to have it down at IMI this week-

http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/untitled.jpg

http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/222301_2067482643986_1152410339_2614196_4311307_n. jpg

http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/229154_2067486284077_1152410339_2614201_5687941_n. jpg

http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/DoddJacobsen/225873_2067483484007_1152410339_2614197_7116214_n. jpg

[AdamandNoahsdad]

What are you guys doing as far as suspension changes? Lowering? Offset triple clamps? Those cool little brackets the flat track guys use to correct the trail in the front? R6 forks and triples?

[Dodd]

The only thing I had done was Dave Rose (STM Suspension) cut down and revalve the forks and shock.

Out at IMI today I found what a lot of dirt bike guys already know, that thing is HARD to ride! after years of running sport bikes on the track and in the canyons it was quite a shock to run around on a lowered dirt bike.

Plus side is I must have built it right, as it held together and ran really well, without any parts shaking off. With the high gearing its not quite as skittish and wheelie happy as it was before, and it pulls consistently through the gears. The big ole' brembo slows it down in a hurry. I'm going to have to find a solution to the vibrations in the pegs, however, as after 3 laps my feet were completely numb. I'm thinking of retro-fitting some rubber inserts into the dirt pegs ala' my old Ducati Hypermotard- or something similar.

Other than that, trying to figgure out where the front end is all the time, and the bouncyness mid corner it works great.

I think with a little more practice, and tweaking it will work really well. I'm looking forward to a HPR track day so I can get back on the big track that I know, and not try to muscle it through a little short one with so many sharp turns right on top of each other.