After some opinions

[Clarkie]

Since I hit my head, and lets face it I was never very smart before, what do people think it takes to go fast around the track? No being sexy like "The Dale Eaton Show" isnt one of them :D

[The GECCO]

I think it's the right combination of a LOT of things, but of the list above I chose suspension because neither power, nor brakes, nor anything else means much it you can't get it to the ground!

[sheispoison]

I think it's the right combination of a LOT of things, but of the list above I chose suspension because neither power, nor brakes, nor anything else means much it you can't get it to the ground!

+1!!
I feel like I progressed more this year than ever before and I think most of it was having the right suspension help. You can't go fast if you're not comfortable and you can't get comfortable if you have to fight the bike.
carl

[Clarkie]

I keep hearing HPR is more of a HP track the Pueblo, but I see lots of on camber and off camber corners where getting through the corner and back on the gas is more important than just having horsepower for the straight or to get up the hills.

Glen?

[polar x]

Its all in our heads. Simple as that. You can ride around many problems. Sure HP is nice, Brakes even better, suspension is kinda black art in my book....BUT whats in your head is key. Confidence comes from with in. Its the lines, mental state and focus. Its about being smart and smooth or fluid. YIN AND YANG baby....seriously, I think we can ride around what we can not fix, or buy to a very large extent. The fast guys are fast on ANYTHING they ride. Think about it.

[vort3xr6]

Seat time, seat time, seat time.

I attribute the lack of seat time to my lack of progression. Granted I ran a 1:57 in lap traffic in practice and my fastest ever race time was a 1:58. I never really got faster after round 5.

It sucked real bad going race to race with no ride time in between to work out the bugs. If I could do it all over again, I would get a stock bike and ride as much as possible.

[Clarkie]

So Brad, just more laps will help? Not shooting your idea down at all, I would like to know a wide range of people's ideas, skill level/speed on the track has nothing to do with the way we all learn either.

I never did a 'ton of laps' myself, I would rather go out with a purpose to test something in particular, a few laps at a time. Doing a ton of laps never seemed to help me, I needed to test/fix things in order (a couple of laps at a time), I would have a mental list of things to test and in what order I needed to test them. I couldnt get from A to D, if I didnt do B and then C in order first.

People give me shit about my 'better or worse' method, but it worked for me. One change at a time, better or worse, a mate of mine in Aussie taught me this method and he used to work some some stupid 500GP Team or something. I would spend a LOT of time on pit lane trying things with suspension, geometry and electronics until they were right. We all learn differently, I leaned a lot by 'feel' for years until it got to the point I needed hard data I could look at.

It's like some people just practice at 80% and then when they ride at 100% in a race the bike doesnt work very well. Even if I just strung 2-3 turns together at a time at 100% I would have info and a baseline of that sector.

[dave.gallant]

Amazing.

After all the years and they still don't know when you are baiting them Aaron. :)

[Clarkie]

LOL I am actually not baiting anyone! I am honestly just curious, we all look at things different, and approach things differently. You are just mad because I didnt have a "Goat" option in my pole :D

[Bueller999]

What is that saying? 90% mental 10% machine, or something like that.
Mr. Coonshead hit it on the head, some people can ride anything fast. Aaron you know this cause you are one of those people. Myself I am very average but I never found the need to pour $ into bolt on HP or gadgets, everything I ride is pretty much stock unless I bought it with upgrades. I can't ride anything to it's full potential stock. :oops:
Maybe the Ninja 250 :wink: maybe

[HAMMER]

Iv noticed going from the mini bikes where you can "feel" every little problem like 10 fold compaired to the bigger bikes ( that even in stock form handle better , brake better , and have real suspension) is a huge help for learning how to carry corner speed and find the correct brake points at a much slower pace . Then when you get back on the larger steed you will notice stuff about how the bike feels that you never saw before . For example I can tell wats wrong or off as far as suspension and and set up on my mini ( like the forks won't come back fast enuff and is causes chatter on corner exits) . You really notice that on a mini but you wouldn't know what to look for on the larger bike because it is faster and heaver and the pace is so quick ) if that make any sense . But I also think seat time has a lot to do with it . Not just laps and laps but dialing in your setup and getting the comfort level up . Iv always noticed having my bars and controls and throttle tight and in the perfect places helps with fatigue and makes the bike feel " right " and that helps with my lap times .

Definitely practice tho .....get a 250 and come do some corners and see what I mean

[froth]

Its all in our heads. Simple as that. You can ride around many problems. Sure HP is nice, Brakes even better, suspension is kinda black art in my book....BUT whats in your head is key. Confidence comes from with in. Its the lines, mental state and focus. Its about being smart and smooth or fluid. YIN AND YANG baby....seriously, I think we can ride around what we can not fix, or buy to a very large extent. The fast guys are fast on ANYTHING they ride. Think about it.

I think watching the rather fast Mr. M. a couple years back bears out what Chris sais. He borrowed Lincoln's SV, which has an R1 front end(too ridgid, which made Lincoln work overtime to get it dialed in), fatigued motor, and rip off laps that weren't that far off of his built SV. Like the Detroit motto of old, "There is no replacement for displacement," there is no substitute for the mental side of things.

Jus my $.02. I really enjoy reading the repsonses, and learning the how and whys.

[The GECCO]

I keep hearing HPR is more of a HP track the Pueblo, but I see lots of on camber and off camber corners where getting through the corner and back on the gas is more important than just having horsepower for the straight or to get up the hills.

Glen?

Yeah, I would disagree that HPR is an HP track, at least in comparison to Pueblo. To me, Pueblo is the epitome of a "point and shoot" track (not saying that's good or bad, just what it is). HPR does have a straight that is as long as Pueblo's, but at HPR you spend a LOT more time on the side of the tire, transitioning side-to-side, partial throttle, trail braking, etc...in other words, I feel HPR requires a lot more finesse, more than just sitting on the bike and rolling the throttle open until you get to the next 90 degree turn.

[Clarkie]

Cool Hammer, I learned to Road Race on a 250GP bike and then raced the Aprilia Cup RS250's so I think I know what you mean. Chassis feedback and the bike's handling was way more important than horsepower. I think (just my opinion) that when you learn to set a small/low horsepower bike up, it helps 10 fold when you get on a bigger bike.

Of course racing an 85hp GP bike that weighed in at 220lbs wasnt exactly a smart bike to start racing on, expecially when I used to motocross it around the track. Guys used to come up to me and say you cant back a GP bike in like that, I would just as why not? LOL The looks I got at the 99 Autralian GP when I had a wildcard from the other GP racers was classic!

[Clarkie]

[quote=Clarkie]
Yeah, I would disagree that HPR is an HP track, at least in comparison to Pueblo. To me, Pueblo is the epitome of a "point and shoot" track (not saying that's good or bad, just what it is). HPR does have a straight that is as long as Pueblo's, but at HPR you spend a LOT more time on the side of the tire, transitioning side-to-side, partial throttle, trail braking, etc...in other words, I feel HPR requires a lot more finesse, more than just sitting on the bike and rolling the throttle open until you get to the next 90 degree turn.

Cool good to know Glen, that's what it looks like to me but I have only done 1 lap in a truck to show me the course. Gee if only I knew some guy with a Cobra the could take me for some real laps at pace........ :D

[HAMMER]

. Chassis feedback and the bike's handling was way more important than horsepower. I think (just my opinion) that when you learn to set a small/low horsepower bike up, it helps 10 fold when you get on a bigger bike.

I agree . The year I was goin fast on my six (2008 am gtu championship) I spent every weekend at the Kart track on my ysr that winter before.

[JWinter]

When I go out onto the track I look at what can I do better in turn 1. Then I progress to what can I do better in turn 2, and the next turn...You all get the point. I may have some weird practice times cause I change my approach to corners so I can see what the outcome is. I find out those outcomes in the race based on lap times or most important my finishing spot. You would be surprised how easy it is to drop a second per lap based on a corner by corner approach. Plus racing a small bike helps build speed. I don't think I would be at the same point in development had I tried to race big bikes.

I think the most important investment in racing bikes is in the racer. I plan (when I am through with college) to spend money on some one on one instruction to help me with my weaknesses (Clarkie would make a great teacher hint, hint, hint).

Having someone to talk too helps. Dave Rose helped me a ton with suspension just from listening to me tell him what the bike was doing.
In the end I think learning is the key to success in anything we do in life.

Jeff

[Clarkie]

Totally makes sense Jeff, I would always try and link a few corners together as there was no point attacking T1 in a way that you lost everything you gained or more, trying to get through T2. Corners link together and from what I have seen at HPR it is even more important than at a track like Pueblo where like Glen said, it is more of a point and shoot track. I even got to the point in practice since I knew some people had a watch on me or would look over my practice times where I would do the 1st two thirds of a lap really well, but back off a lot so my lap time didnt show what I could do, then the next lap nail the 2nd two thirds of the lap. It's amazing how much people underestimate the mental side of bike racing is (MX,SX,RR etc), you can almost beat someone even before you get on track, I used to have fun doing it :wink:

It's the great thing with split times, you can look at what you 'could' do if you get the 'perfect lap' which is even hard for the really fast guys in AMA/WSBK/MotoGP to do.

Phillip Island and Eastern Creek in Aussie are both high speed tracks, but reward a rider who can 'link' the turns together. What became the biggest benifit for me was to have test information and results in front of me to look over. For years I just did thing by memory, heck even gearing LOL. In 2008 I started writing things down and things seemed to progress quickly and a lot easier.

I think I should have written down "Dont hit the bloody wall!" a few more times :D

[OUTLAWD]

balls weren't an option?

I'm still at a point where I am making leaps and bounds of progress, and now when I get passed by a faster rider, I can normally hang for a few corners.

I spent this season getting the suspension close enough and then just trying to learn how to ride the tracks. I spent as much money as I could on track time and coaching, and spent time learning the bike. I tried to break the track up into sections, and I would find a groove, but then as I gained speed in one section, the same lines and markers stopped working in others, so it almost felt like I was starting over from scratch every time I made some improvemements.

If I am following someone who is usually a few clicks faster than me, I can follow them, ride their ride, and normally pass them, but if i am by myself on the track, I get lazy. Its 95% mental, and having the confidence in the equipment.

I need to start writing shit down too...haha

[cromer611]

suspension 100%

[JWinter]

How about it Clarkie? You going to do some instruction and/or mentoring?

Jeff

[GSXRScott]

[quote="vort3xr6"]Seat time, seat time, seat time.[quote]

Agreed.

That and a feeling of comfort and confidence from your bike. I rode a Triumph 675 last weekend. Worst riding position ever(for me anyways)!!!!

[Clarkie]

How about it Clarkie? You going to do some instruction and/or mentoring?

Jeff

Working on a couple of cool ideas in that direction right now Jeff, wont say much about it, but it will definitely be cool. Just wish something like what a couple of us are working on now, was around when I was racing 8)

[davy4575]

Im really new and am progressing steadily as well. I ask a ton of questions, follow advice from advanced racers and reps, and try to structure practice.
As a snow sports instructor and race coach, I try to apply how I teach students to how I learn so that I can get the best possible results in the quickest amount of time without exceeding my limits as a rider.

Im in the process of writing the tips and drills that I have been given this year into a skills based series of progressions for me to work on. I brake it down into basic areas so that I have a model to learn from. Based on

1)body position/balance in motion
2)skills - use of throttle, brakes, vision, clutch, shifting
3)timing of movements - when to downshift, brake, throttle, etc.
4) tactics - reference points, turn in, exit points, line choice, track conditon etc.

Im a very conservative rider still, but ive progressed little bit by little bit this season. for me applying sound learning behavior and form following function will payoff in the long run and hopefully allow me to sack up on speed as I develop. I wish I could go out there and have the speed right off the bat that I see people have, but monday pays bettter than sunday for me, so Ill take the long way to get at it.

[Clarkie]

As a snow sports instructor and race coach, I try to apply how I teach students to how I learn so that I can get the best possible results in the quickest amount of time without exceeding my limits as a rider.

Im in the process of writing the tips and drills that I have been given this year into a skills based series of progressions for me to work on. I brake it down into basic areas so that I have a model to learn from. Based on

1)body position/balance in motion
2)skills - use of throttle, brakes, vision, clutch, shifting
3)timing of movements - when to downshift, brake, throttle, etc.
4) tactics - reference points, turn in, exit points, line choice, track conditon etc.


Awesome! People dont realise how much other sports cross over, I didnt. Not in the sitting on the seat and twisting the throttle thing, but in the thought process and approach to motorcycle racing. I dont know squat about snow sports (being born on an island in the south Pacific, yeah I know the US ski team trains in Queenstown, but that isnt at the beach I grew up at :D ) but I am sure things like looking/thinking ahead cross over a lot.

Tactics are probably the biggest thing that is overlooked in club Road Racing. "Going real fast and trying to win" is a goal, not a tactic. I have worked with a couple of people recently and always told them to make sure they have a plan, but be ready to change it.

I have raced against guys who just sprint as hard as they can the entire race and break you, others who will bide their time and wait. It really doesnt matter if you win by a wheel or 10 seconds for the points, but it does have an impact on the moral of the competition.

Like most sports, people discount just how mental the sport is, you can almost beat another racer who is just as fast as you in the pits. Not by doing anything to them, more just what they might see you doing. It's the main reason I used to do my motor swap (SS out, big bore SBK in) in front of everyone in the pits LOL :D

[Clarkie]

Ok, so by looking at the pole results and reading the comments, most people think it is either seat time, suspension, or "something most club racers dont consider".

I would expect every endurance race to be full then, it is great practice. I myself have always found it more valuable than just a practice session as the actual green flag/lights kind of gets the blood pumping a lot more than just rolling down pit lane.

Suspension without a doubt! You can't get on the gas regardless of how much power you have if the bike isnt settled. Comfortable is fast, I have had bikes which feel like a couch when riding, predictable, comfortable, and yeah a little "Piggish" (that's for you Ben :D ) and others that just seemed to fight me the entire race.

So what are some of the ideas for what people dont/havent consider? Having a couple of beers the night before to relax? Fighting with your significant other before the race to get the blood flowing? New tires every time you go on track? (more of a mental thing really) Fans waving and clapping for you? Spending hours looking over your notes, if you take notes?

[DarkKnight]

Visualization and some relaxation. You need to visualize not only your way around the track but also wining. You also cant be on the edge, you need to be a bit loose for good bike control - breathing exercises pre-race for me and visualizing my lines through the corners for me. Hasn't improved times for me but I turn fairly consistent laps, have been able to avoid several crashes that happened directly in front of me and recover from potential high sides and off track excursions. Speed and better lap times will come.

[jmaher]

Rob Oliva set up my suspension at HPR and took the time to explain what I should be feeling for and what it meant. I noticed a HUGE difference. I think mentally knowing someone knowledgeable helped do the set up helped too. Then it did not feel right at Pueblo and Wyeth suggested some changes that worked perfect. Both Wyeth and Grubbs also suggested some gearing changes which again worked out great. I welcome unsolicited advice as often I am not sure what to ask. After that, it is a matter of following the faster riders that pass me watching their lines and what they do. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. I used to shoot skeet competitively and won a class world championship in 2002. I'm finding lots of similarities between competitive skeet shooting and racing.

Joe

[JimWilson29]

What does it take to go fast around the track? Dedication, determination, resiliency and alot of heart. Suspension, big motors, brakes, coaching; they don't mean anything unless you have the will to continually push yourself further than you did the last time you rode. In 2006 I was a backmarker circulating around the ROR grid and getting lapped. Other rider's complained to the track marshall that I didnt belong out there. After I was spoken to, I started pushing myself to improve. By the end of the season I was no longer getting lapped nor finishing last. I ended up with the #9 plate on a bike with stock motor and suspension. 2007 I finished with the #6 plate and in 2008 I finished with the #3 plate, and that was doing the last 3 rounds on borrowed bikes with stock motors after mine grenaded. I learned that the bike didnt matter as much as I did. Unfortunately the past 2 seasons have been complete disasters for me. Between the mechanical problems, crashes, and the debilitating disease that has left me partially blind, it was enough for me to quit and walk away. But something in my heart won't let me. Aaron, I watched you win your #1 plates here and in Utah without a large budget, a big tire allowance, or an army of people helping you. You did it on your own because you had more heart than anyone else on the grid.

Some of you may have seen this on my bike (the few times it's been out the past 2 seasons). It's a quote by a boxer from 40's and 50's by the name of Sugar Ray Robinson. It's a constant reminder that I can't expect or rely on anyone else to push me or make me more successful, that it's up to me to make a difference in everything I do.

http://uglydogracing.com/images/believe_in_yourself_small.jpg

[Clarkie]

Well said Jim. I have been beaten by riders by who just showed more heart and wanted it more than I did. I learned pretty quickly that if I am going to spend a lot of time and money doing something, I needed to give it everything I had. Yeah to some it is just a weekend hobby, to others it can be so much more.

[cromer611]

Yeah to some it is just a weekend hobby, to others it can be so much more.
Its my life, anyone who has spent enough time with me at my place hanging out knows that. I play motorbike video games, watch races, motogp, moto2, 125, wsbk, wss, british superbike, supersport, superstock, irish road racing, the list goes on.
There is a reason why my pantry is full of ramen, and I'm thankful that my wife knows how its been my life dream to do what we are doing. Now if only I could get a nice dealership to help me out with a new scoot :-)

[racer316]

This is going back a few years but my best time at PPR was a 1:03 or something like that in the AMU race. I decided to do the AMA race there that year and struggled to get to the 1:02 range. Then Elton Curry came along side me and said if I could do a 1:02 I could do a 1:01. I knew the AMA guys were doing 0:57's and for Supersport all the bikes are fairly close. I TOLD myself I could do a 1:00 flat and went out and did it! In the race I ended up doing a 0:58.9 . . . 4 seconds quicker than the previous MRA race two weeks earlier.
Mental roadblocks are huge and when you start believing you can actually ride the bike for all its worth that is a huge step in my opinion. The bikes these days are far more capable than most of our level of riding. I already had the suspension set up pretty good and the motor was strong. Just needed to work on myself. A mental tune up pays huge dividends.

[JohnGarc]

90% mental / 10%... Before every race you will see me headphones on with a sweet music playlist rockin... Helps me concentrate and also pumps me up for the next race. I used this for years when I played Ball in High School. For me, it allowed me to be totally focused and mentally ready because I would study the game and run plays or do laps in my head tactically, studying, rolling through, every corner. And much also allows me to be a more finesse rider, ala brakes, throttle roll on, throttle roll off, and trail braking... Something I learned this year - trail braking; helps alot to accurately gauge my entry, mid-corner, and exit speed.

I will also add that it helps to watch people crash (ouch)!!! I know... Really just finding out what people are doing wrong... When I watch other riders fall or screw up, toss it... I learn exacty what not to do. It also helps riding many different bikes and learning the characteristics of every machine...

Of course, I am not the fastest, maybe average, but I do ride defensively because (A.) I am old, (B.) I want to work on Monday, and (C.) I don't want to crash and fix my bike... So my goals for the season are... At Least... (1.) Finish second to last... And (2.) Don't crash... So far this method has helped me to overcome all goals in my two years of racing with MRA... wehew...

Because aren't we all just trying to have fun on a motorcycle??? Lets bring that back...

[OUTLAWD]

So my goals for the season are... At Least... (1.) Finish second to last... And (2.) Don't crash... So far this method has helped me to overcome all goals in my two years of racing with MRA...


Being my first season, I had the exact same goals...not to finish last, and to keep it upright. Running endurance and a few sprints really helped me learn alot and aided in the transition from a street/trackday rider, to someone who wants to race...Yes I am still a backmarker, but with the level I was riding at this season, I was not pushing myself...at all. Now that I know the bike, tracks, and other riders better, I hope to actually make some HUGE improvements next year, and they should be easy, cuz they are all in my head :lol:

[davy4575]

+1 to both John and Dave. Having come in dead last, its definetly motivated me to push it cause it really sucks. Having someone to do battle for place with has really made me pick up the pace and get out of my comfort zone. Battling with Randall the last few races really helped me to push my limits and ignore fear and instinct that was slowing me down. Also made me capitalize on my strenghts and work on my weaknesses. I could begin to see where and why I was loosing time and making time. So Ive set my goals for next season and am expecting to see good gains as well.

[irdave]

If I might add...

And I say this to help, not to be self-serving.

I've seen a lot of people ride to the ability of their bike/suspension/tires- and still be way off the pace. Maybe the springs are way off- maybe way too soft- so you just can't brake that hard and can't really get through the corner that fast- because of the springs- so you learn where 'the limit' is, and ride around at that pace because to go faster would be to crash...

So in that case, no matter how much seat time you get, the bike literally won't get through the corner any faster...

Don't underestimate getting the bike set-up close. Some problems you ride around, but really try to get it close before you decide that it's something to just deal with...

Hope that helps.

[Clarkie]

I totally agree Dave. I have had a setup with suspension, gearing or chassis settings where the bloody bike would only do a certain lap time. I would change 1 or 2 things and drop 1-2 seconds a lap without trying any harder.

Like at Pueblo, I could do 1.32's ok but couldnt get any lower, then once I changed a couple of things 1.30's in practice seemed to come easier. Heck I had to have the bike set up to do 1.30's when Shane and Brad were doing 1.29's in the race, bastards! LOL :D

Having good data about what the bike is really doing is important. I used to ride by 'feel' for many years, but knowing what the bike is really doing is a big thing nowdays. 'Thinking' the bike is doing this or that doesnt cut it, and trying to set up a bike off feedback is tough as the feedback can be way off what is really happening.

[d_mob]

pointless comment, but damn i remember you guys tearing around pueblo in 08 and damn... it was fast!

goodness Clarkie was FAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it was my first year as a racer and wow i had a lot to live up to --------