"Thunderbike" aka Misfit GP (MW removed from name)

[snowblaze506]

Do you have a bike that doesn't "fit" in the 600 or 1000cc classes? Are you an exceptionally average racer, like myself? Would you like a place to share your passion for things out of the norm, motorcyclewise?

The following is copied from the STGTU thread:

"FWIW: If we do a MWThunderBike some year, I suggest removing the Jurergen rule and allowing the TZs back into Supertwins like they used to be. They are a twin."


"There seems to be interest in a MWThunderbike class which would entail 675s,748/9/853/848s/Peironbonbonbons/Buel/other Ducati-CrapBags(tm) as well as anyone from the LWTwins class that would want to play. The 675 may kick the crap out of all of the other bikes in there (especially when ridden by Brad), but I think a 675 versus a well ridden 848 or 749R (Shane) may give him a decent run. At least this proposed class is a great deal more level than a 749R versus a 650cc ladies sport touring machine.

I don't want to fix something that is not broken nor limit the classes the interesting and unique bikes can run in, but TwinsU was severely broken. These types of discussions are the step needed to grow and adapt as a club. I dislike Hot Carl as much as the next guy, but I think a "Formula Oddball" class would be hella cool. If anyone actually showed up and raced it. "


"Do you think we could get 10 bikes on the "grid" consisting of MW Twins and Triumphs for the first weekend next year?

If so, then as I understand it, MRA members can essentially create MW Thunderbike on the fly as stated by the MRA rulebook. (I think? I have never actually seen this take place...) "


" However, on a more serious note... I know of at least 4 675s that would definitely run this, possibly 6 if it's run on a Sunday. I haven't heard any down side to this the way Dave (although he is a total dick) laid it out. It sounds like win win to me.
carl "


" The thread proposed Mw Thunderbike could be a catch all for most of us not running the "standards". 250ringding,675,636,748,749,848, and maybe the 3-5 aprilias that are around. All in the guesstimated 120hp range. I'll even run the old one. Hell, I'll bring both. "


" I think I now see where I might have had better luck with my twins proposal from last year. While I suggested separating out the SV clan as lightweights and the Ducs/675/TZ's as middleweights, the proposal didn't include an additional class to run the middleweights. At the time I thought it would create more of a burden on the schedule to add a Thunderbike class so my suggestion simply changed the nature of Twins GTU and left the lightweights in Lightweight GP. "


" Personally I've always viewed SuperTwins GTU as our MIDDLEWEIGHT twins class. LWGP is the LIGHTWEIGHT twins class in my humble opinion. Last year we made THAT class a safe haven for SV's by eliminating the 250GP bikes and large air cooled twins from the class.

As I thought more about this today (before I saw your post) I came up with the following question in my own mind: "Why are we kicking twins out of a class called SuperTwins?" Is a 749R a contender for a STO win against a 1098R? Riders being equal, no. Is a Pierobon F042 a contender for an STO win...see above. Is it the MRA's fault that SV riders CHOOSE to RACE UP into a middleweight class on their bike? No, it's no different than Dalton or Josh racing 600's up into ROR-O.

When the vote came to kick the Pierobon out it was inevitable that the 749R get booted too, as it's a more capable bike than the F042 is.

This vote also kicks out the 1000 SuperSport, which we have racing in our club.

The crux of this argument comes down to the following question:

"Is SuperTwins GTU a lightweight Twins Class or a Middleweight Twins Class?" "


" Hey. Looks like I'm selling my 2002 RSV, but if Novice's can run this "old crap Italian bike" class, I might keep it and get my but kicked by Brewer every weekend. It would be better than gettin my but kicked by a bone stock R6. "


" Carl, you can add another Duc to that mix, I have a 748 motor now too. "


" Sooo, if we do it right, and add another twins class, I can go out and have fun in another class (yes, I'll have my head handed to me again, but hey, racing up on the SV is a blast). Cool. "


" So, just to recap, in case there is any confusion in what I suggested earlier in this thread:

* LWGP already removed the TZ250s which essentially lends this class to the SV650 and other true lightweight bikes. I suggested leaving this class as-is.

* Supertwins GTU is modified to become a middleweight class that allows up to 850cc desmo 4 valve water cooled engines, unlimited air cooled engines, unlimited two-stroke engines (twin or not), and up to 700cc three cylinder engines. (read: overbored 748s, 848s, Peribons, Buells, Trumpet 675s, TZ/RS250s)

I only suggested this because of the modifications made to LWGP last season which allows an SV650 to now race in a class that is not populated by true race bred machines such as the 749R or TZ250. This suggestion also provides a place for those middleweight bikes to race against (similar) other motorcycles and a way to keep all Ducati riders from causing a full blown holy war.

I think Ben Fox would approve of this message. (He can't be here right now. He is in front of a mirror preparing for his next TV appearance with the AMA) "


" Been there, done that. This was exactly what was proposed LAST year. Here's the link: http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=9674

...And the explanation is the 8th post down in this thread. http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=9739

However, I believe this one was missed at the meeting this year. LWSS/LWSB http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=11540 "


" It sounds to me like between the 8 triumphs, 3-5 Ducs, 2-3 two fiddys, and the countless SVs that would race up that we have more than enough to field a grid. We're not really adding any classes. I don't see why this shouldn't happen! The board can still approve it if they want to since it was technically brought up before the deadline (last year) right? "


" Don't forget about the 3-5 stock Aprilia RSV's that are on par with those Duc's (I was passed on the straight by that pesky 749r and 748ish bike)and probably out gunned by the 675's. "


" Chiming in a little late here but:

90hp sv weighs? 350ish?

120hp 749r weighs, 390+.

has anyone picked up a 40lb dumbell lateley? I have...and really wouldnt want to strap it on my bike.


The hp discussion/argument about the sv and ducati is not as telling as it really should be IMO.

Rybo how much does your bike weigh?
Moham?
Munch?

Show the hp to weight ratios on each of the bikes in question then make some valid arguments based on that, because it tells a real story, not just "this bike makes xxxhp". And it's no match.

In general a race prepped 848 will weigh more than the 749r it has a larger swingarm and frame tube diameter, both are larger in general size than an SV just more mass everywhere.

The 848's on the grids in AMA dsb had to weigh 380, minimum, at the beginning of the season. Then that weight requirement was lowered mid season as the 848's were struggling against the 600's


I'm not arguing one way or the other just stating the facts that should not be overlooked. "


" No, I like STGTU as it is with the new rules!

Let's get a new class called Thunderbike!!! I thought this would go through last year, but it didn't. Run it with the middleweight twins, triples, GP bikes, and the exotics (like Turpins bike).

By the way I seen the sneak photos of the new BMW middleweight triple!

Jeff "

[dave.gallant]

I approve of this message.

[T Baggins]

wow, excellent cutting and pasting skills Batman!

[snowblaze506]

Utahsba has a similar class, Twins GTO. The SV guys still have their own class, Twins GTU. The only addition to the this GTO class structure would be to allow the GBR 675's in. Wmrra runs a Formula Thunder class, similar idea.

Utahsba Twins GTO class structure
a) Up to 430cc two or more cylinder two stroke, unlimited origin
b) Up to 550cc two or more cylinder two stroke, if frame is from a motorcycle manufactured for street use in North America
c) Up to 550cc single cylinder two stroke, unlimited origin
d) Up to 1000cc two cylinder four stroke four or more valves per cylinder, liquid cooled, except the Ducati 999R and equivalents (Ducati 999 is legal in this class; Ducati 999R is not)
e) Unlimited displacement air cooled, one or two cylinders


WERA has a class structures similar to the "Misfit GP" idea.

HEAVYWEIGHT TWINS SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE and HEAVYWEIGHT TWINS SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE

Unlimited displacement air-cooled, four stroke twins, (based on Formula rules in HWTSB)
Unlimited displacement water-cooled, four stroke twins, (under 900cc based on Formula rules in HWTSB
Up to 700cc water cooled, four stroke triples
Any machine legal for Lightweight Twins
125cc & 250cc GP Machines in Superbike Only
*Up to 1050cc Triples based on Superstock rules will be allowed in HWT Superbike only.
*There are no bodywork limits in HWT.

[JohnGarc]

Sorry for not reading the rules.. But off hand. Can you tell me what class I can run for Endurance Only? Is it lightweight? I am building an 03 Ducati 620ss frame with a 93 Ducati 750ss motor. IDK but it puts out maybe 60-65hp???

Any help would be appreciated.

[Scored51]

Since the twins classes are subject to change but haven't been finalized for next year, this advice is only based on last year's specs. It should be legal for LWGP (as long as you don't go any bigger), LW End, STU, and everything on up. These classes are all GP based so you don't need to worry about the chassis swap. The one thing you will need to work out is how you will run this after setting up your Skorpion. :D

[JohnGarc]

Well I came across a sweet Duc, that I just couldnt pass up. So the R1 is for sale to fund the Duc. project. I am thinking of running Endurance LW with the Duc. and the CClass with the Skorpion. I would rather do the Skorpion for LW endurance but I don't think it will be that competitive plus I don't want to get slaughtered out there like I did with my RD350. That was hella fun but scary as shit too. haha :lol:

[Jon]

Not to be a constant thorn in the MRA's side but may I suggest that the MRA and USBA have some discussion as to this rule. After my bike being questionable in both clubs but deemed legal. I went ahead and raced and won with the USBA the Twins U class. I had some great racing and certainly didn't rule the roost and was beaten on more than one occasion by an SV 650. Though by seasons end yes, the USBA like the MRA had some questions over the true legality over my bike after I had developed it. Don Roberts (their director of competition) and myself agreed that it had grown beyond the scope of the class. They are better aligning their rules to grow the lightweight twins class and I am in full support of this as are many racers. I started on a small twin in the early nineties and still believe them to be the way to be able to race cheaply while developing made cornering skills. Cheap racing makes for growing attendance and growth for the club.
Lastly, with the proximity of the two clubs and maybe one day a shared event, I believe that this could proximity some conflict should there be a combined event or should I or others wish to travel. Thank you for your consideration.

[snowblaze506]

Another thunderbike class, http://emra.ca/index.php?pageid=classes

[Scored51]

Hey, let's get the "Thunderbike" class started already so we can fight over kicking this thing out of the class! :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2010/11/mv-agusta-unveils-new-f3-675cc-triple/

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/110110top-i-730x488.jpg

[froth]

Where's the I want tab?

[snowblaze506]

I like the unofficial addition of the "thunderbike" class!!! And the attempt at parity for the bikes that will be eligible. After speaking with Tony and Scott at the meeting, then thinking over things on the drive home, I looked up some specs for bikes that are being considered or not for the class.

Triumph 675 Power: 126.05 HP (92.0 kW)) @ 12600 RPM
Dry weight: 162.0 kg (357.1 pounds)
Weight incl. oil, gas, etc: 184.0 kg (405.7 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.7781 HP/kg

Ducati 848 Power: 134.00 HP (97.8 kW)) @ 10000 RPM
Dry weight: 168.0 kg (370.4 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.7976 HP/kg

Aprilia RSV Mille Power: 130.00 HP (94.9 kW)) @ 9500 RPM
(01-03) Dry weight: 187.0 kg (412.3 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.6952 HP/kg

Aprilia RSVR Power: 141.12 HP (103.0 kW)) @ 10000 RPM
(04+) Dry weight: 189.0 kg (416.7 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.7467 HP/kg


All specs from www.bikez.com using the newest available model. Power/weight numbers show a little different line up than talked about at the meeting. Just throwing out some numbers. Thanks for taking the steps to add this class guys.

Casey #75

[benfoxmra95]

I like the unofficial addition of the "thunderbike" class!!! And the attempt at parity for the bikes that will be eligible. After speaking with Tony and Scott at the meeting, then thinking over things on the drive home, I looked up some specs for bikes that are being considered or not for the class.

Triumph 675 Power: 126.05 HP (92.0 kW)) @ 12600 RPM
Dry weight: 162.0 kg (357.1 pounds)
Weight incl. oil, gas, etc: 184.0 kg (405.7 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.7781 HP/kg

Ducati 848 Power: 134.00 HP (97.8 kW)) @ 10000 RPM
Dry weight: 168.0 kg (370.4 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.7976 HP/kg

Aprilia RSV Mille Power: 130.00 HP (94.9 kW)) @ 9500 RPM
(01-03) Dry weight: 187.0 kg (412.3 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.6952 HP/kg

Aprilia RSVR Power: 141.12 HP (103.0 kW)) @ 10000 RPM
(04+) Dry weight: 189.0 kg (416.7 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.7467 HP/kg


All specs from www.bikez.com using the newest available model. Power/weight numbers show a little different line up than talked about at the meeting. Just throwing out some numbers. Thanks for taking the steps to add this class guys.

Casey #75

I'm extremely skeptical of the 370 lb ducati 848 spec. can someone tell me how a street bike 848 with no oil or gas weighs less than a full on ducati 1098r superbike(which i have a little bit of experience with regarding the weight of) that has no lights, no plastic bodywork.? There's very very little difference in the engines between the 848 and 1098r, they weigh very similar. the crank in the 848 is heavier and the rods are heavier and the pistons are slightly lighter. there might be a 3-4 lb difference between the two. and the 848 comes with a steel subframe.

The MRA can afford some quality scales from intercomp. I still think its time to start using weight as a measurement for the rule book. "stated HP" and weight form manufactures is not a good way to judge the things and group them.

[JimWilson29]

I like the unofficial addition of the "thunderbike" class!!! And the attempt at parity for the bikes that will be eligible. After speaking with Tony and Scott at the meeting, then thinking over things on the drive home, I looked up some specs for bikes that are being considered or not for the class.

Triumph 675 Power: 126.05 HP (92.0 kW)) @ 12600 RPM
Dry weight: 162.0 kg (357.1 pounds)
Weight incl. oil, gas, etc: 184.0 kg (405.7 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.7781 HP/kg

Ducati 848 Power: 134.00 HP (97.8 kW)) @ 10000 RPM
Dry weight: 168.0 kg (370.4 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.7976 HP/kg

Aprilia RSV Mille Power: 130.00 HP (94.9 kW)) @ 9500 RPM
(01-03) Dry weight: 187.0 kg (412.3 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.6952 HP/kg

Aprilia RSVR Power: 141.12 HP (103.0 kW)) @ 10000 RPM
(04+) Dry weight: 189.0 kg (416.7 pounds)
Power/weight ratio: 0.7467 HP/kg


All specs from www.bikez.com using the newest available model. Power/weight numbers show a little different line up than talked about at the meeting. Just throwing out some numbers. Thanks for taking the steps to add this class guys.

Casey #75

The '04 and newer Aprilia RSVR would not be eligible, only the '03 and older. And I can tell you that my '01 RSV Mille is no where near the 130hp that bikez.com lists. With a full akra system, pc3, eprom chip update and clarkie map I am only pushing 108 at the wheel.

[dave.gallant]

So, wait:

We are allowing old RSVs and Tls in this class too?


(cool!)

[Desmodromico]

Personally I am stoked if this happens, and that said if all the newer Mille's are in that is cool too, AMA saw fit to let them run with the 600's and it wasn't a huge advantage for them. The guys from KWS posted their specs on the WERA board: 138hp, 381lbs wet, my 675 made 117/50 on Bart's dyno and I'm guessing weighs around 360 pounds wet.

We have talked a lot about how to bring in new racers, but I think another important question is how to keep those we do bring in as it seems the falloff of experts is pretty dramatic as well. Speaking as someone who will be at the tail end of the expert times next year having classes like this that aren't quite the meat grinder of the big AMU and AMO grids gets me psyched for next year.

[benfoxmra95]

So, wait:

We are allowing old RSVs and Tls in this class too?


(cool!)


oh yeah.... didn't you hear?

basically, the mra rules have always been grouping bikes by displacement, but this class is a "speculative" HP class so any bike that's roughly in a certain HP range will race here. Im not quite sure how the authorities that be are determining class eligibility :roll: for certain said bikes like the 916's and mille's and tl1000r's but basically i think all you have to do is come up with some hp specs from somewhere that's around 120ish and your in.

Hey i have a new web site im building called www.1098rducatismake120hp.com and its going to list hp specs for 1098r's..... :wink:

[dave.gallant]

So a Terry Shepherd TL1000 or a full corsa 916 is legal as long as we tune them to make 90ft/lbs of torque and less than 110HP?

Hell yes. Chaos!

[benfoxmra95]

So a Terry Shepherd TL1000 or a full corsa 916 is legal as long as we tune them to make 90ft/lbs of torque and less than 110HP?

Hell yes. Chaos!

no no no, my friend, you don't even need to detune them. there's no dyno at the track.... come on... no one will care if you show up with a something like that....

Personally im going to build a 1200cc 916. Im going to call it the "heartbreaker"

[JimWilson29]

http://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=4596 http://smiliesftw.com/x/fawkdance.gif

[benfoxmra95]

screw all those middleweight twins and 675's that this class was intended for....munch take that 749r and go away, we don't want you in this class either!!! :lol:

Really all seriousness....i thought this class was going to be a middleweight class for bikes like the 749r but now it's letting in open liter bikes? come on, i don't care if they are 10 years old and made crap for power. they belong where they belong, and that's twins gto...sorry...

also, if this is to be, then please drop the "middleweight" name from the title just call it thunderbike or something that doesn't mislead people to think there's no "litre" bikes in it.

[dave.gallant]

Can we rename this class to "GTFO"?

:shock:

[Bartman]

Only one problem there Benji, Twins GTO is now a 1200cc or more twins class with the Duck and the KTM RC8R. So how about we call it Heavyweight Twins so everybody that has a heavyweight twin has something of a chance.
This has always been the problem with the twins class, instead of making a better bike they just make them bigger, it is effin bullshit. When honda was gettin their ass handed to them by ducati what did they do, they built a 1000cc twin to kick ducatis ass. They did not make there 750 four into a 900 or some shit and then bitch and complain to get the rules changed they beat them with in the rules.

[snowblaze506]

Jim, thanks for highlighting my main reasoning for posting those numbers. The 03 and older Aprilia is well down on Hp/performance compared to the 675 and 848. Even more so from your personal experience with a fair amount of add-ons than the web numbers indicate. I would be very surprised if my '06.5 RSVR put out anywhere close to the 138hp that bikez.com lists. So web numbers are a bit of a grey area.
Having raced with some 848's, there is no straight line advantage between the 848 and RSVR. Only a weight disadvantage to the Aprilia when it comes to, well, everything else.

I'm looking forward to this class. I think it's a great idea to have, basically, a heavyweight weight twins + class. Parity within any class is a tough rule book to write. But looking at the line up, there might be 2 Aprilias for sale or trade for a 675. Please reconsider the cut off year for the Apes.

This message was approved by me, Casey Smith #75 for Thunderbike Parity, mostly because I'm bored and it snowed today. :twisted:

[Desmodromico]

Bart and Ben, you guys should be lobbying for all the old bikes with crazy mods, more $$ in your pockets! Everyone seems to assume the goal of the class is to cheat, I mean according to the rabble on here someone will show up with an 848 badged 1098....was I really racing against liter bikes in 600 frames all year? The plot thickens...

Regardless of what everyone brings to play I gotta say Hot Carl could be the early favorite, I'll happily bring up the rear and try to learn a few things.

[T Baggins]

Thank you Casey for so quickly understanding and campaigning for the true intention of the class.

parity and competition = frickin FUN!

I have no doubt that this class will be successful and well attended!

[benfoxmra95]

Only one problem there Benji, Twins GTO is now a 1200cc or more twins class with the Duck and the KTM RC8R. So how about we call it Heavyweight Twins so everybody that has a heavyweight twin has something of a chance.
This has always been the problem with the twins class, instead of making a better bike they just make them bigger, it is effin bullshit. When honda was gettin their ass handed to them by ducati what did they do, they built a 1000cc twin to kick ducatis ass. They did not make there 750 four into a 900 or some shit and then bitch and complain to get the rules changed they beat them with in the rules.

Bartholomew,

honda barely, barely, won 2 wsbk titles, one title only because haga tested positve for drugs and edwards took it, and the other title was down to the last race and a winner take all between edwards and bayliss, pretty close racing when a wsbk title is determined at the very last race of the season and two riders are tied for points. Hardly the asskicking your talking about not sure what racing you were watching but honda never dominated the ducati. and if you talking about the one year that hayden won in ama, i seem to recall it was only due to consistentency because mladin made some mistakes and the ducati effort was not "factory" backed at all, with gobert riding "when he showed up to the races" for ducati austin out of texas which was a very limited race program.

The way i see it is honda gave up on their twin just like suzuki because they couldn't keep up with ducati even when ducatis were 1000cc.

Sounds like we just need to divide up the twins into 40 freakin groups.

[benfoxmra95]

Bart and Ben, you guys should be lobbying for all the old bikes with crazy mods, more $$ in your pockets! Everyone seems to assume the goal of the class is to cheat, I mean according to the rabble on here someone will show up with an 848 badged 1098....was I really racing against liter bikes in 600 frames all year? The plot thickens...

Regardless of what everyone brings to play I gotta say Hot Carl could be the early favorite, I'll happily bring up the rear and try to learn a few things.


Im not saying the goal of the class is to cheat...

Im saying the middleweight guys like munch on the 749r were getting kicked out of smaller classes and now are getting their own class, but with the stipulation that they may have to race against 1000cc bikes that could possibly make 150hp. your fixing one problem and creating another at the same time.

[benfoxmra95]

Oh and one last thing, about the 1200cc displacement.

You show me one 1000cc twin that's capable of making 190hp, at the wheel. like a suzuki and i will never post on this forum again!

The reason for ducati needing 1200cc is that even at 1200cc they barely make 190hp on good fuel.

so why should ducati have to stay 1000cc and race against suzuki's that can easily go 190 and stay 1000cc's? when a 1000cc twin is only capable of 170 at best?

Save the that whole propaganda wsbk ducati is a bunch of whiner shit for someone that doesnt' have a freaking clue about engines and what they make for power.

[dave.gallant]

Screw you all.

I am told this is not a competitive motorcycle either!

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/xlarge/martin.jpg

Thunderbike Legal??

[Hotrod]

Screw you all.

I am told this is not a competitive motorcycle either!



Thunderbike Legal??

Why, yes... That is very comparable to a Trumpet 675 or Pierobon! As a matter of fact, I believe that a TZ would have an unfair advantage over it, so lets ban TZ's from the MRA entirely!
:D

[Bartman]

Ben at no time did I say anything in this thread about the Suzy 1000 VS the Duck 1200, at present we are talkin about twins and what to do with the old 1000s that have no chance against the new 1200s. I am guessin that with about the same amount of money you can make 749r 848 TL1000 RC51 Milles make similar HPs so putting the older 1000 in makes no difference.
On the subject though Ducati is capable of making a 4 cyl motorcycle that is competitive, they just choose not to for superbike. Seems to me that a few new upstart superbikes came out in the last few years and they are 4cyl and they have done quite well. Given a hard and fast set of rules in moto GP Ducati made a 4cyl V4 when they could just as easily made a twin.
As for honda kicken ducatis ass what I meant more than anything is that honda was willing to play ducatis game to show how much better a 1000cc twin was than a 750cc 4. They did not change the game they just changed how they played it. Now I am not saying that running a1000cc twin against a 1000 cc 4 is fair but a 250cc bump is to much. There is more to look at then just HP numbers, the way twins and 4s accel is different, the handling is different so how well a bike works is more than just the sum of its horsepower and torque.

[T Baggins]

Watching Bart and Sexy Ben duke it out over displacement, horsepower, and twins is a lot like listening to the "evolutionists" debate the "creationists"...

I don't understand, or give enough of a shit about either to have an opinion of my own - but it sure makes for good entertainment! :lol:

[dave.gallant]

I really don't give a damn who or what is legal.

All I want to know is who is going to give me a cheater bike to ride in this class next season???

[Bartman]

Watching Bart and Sexy Ben duke it out over displacement, horsepower, and twins is a lot like listening to the "evolutionists" debate the "creationists"...

I don't understand, or give enough of a shit about either to have an opinion of my own - but it sure makes for good entertainment! :lol:

Thats why I am here Tony, strictly for entertainment value plus it is fun to push Gentle Bens ducati button. We have to do something in the off season to keep warm and discussing the ever present Twins problem just happens to be the current topic. :lol:

[benfoxmra95]

bart:

Ben at no time did I say anything in this thread about the Suzy 1000 VS the Duck 1200

No you didn't say anything about suzuki's, but you did say plenty about how ducati can't make a "better" bike only make it bigger. and you called it "effin bullshit"


Only one problem there Benji, Twins GTO is now a 1200cc or more twins class with the Duck and the KTM RC8R. So how about we call it Heavyweight Twins so everybody that has a heavyweight twin has something of a chance.
This has always been the problem with the twins class, instead of making a better bike they just make them bigger, it is effin bullshit. When honda was gettin their ass handed to them by ducati what did they do, they built a 1000cc twin to kick ducatis ass. They did not make there 750 four into a 900 or some shit and then bitch and complain to get the rules changed they beat them with in the rules.


Thats why I am here Tony, strictly for entertainment value plus it is fun to push Gentle Bens ducati button.
yeah, you know what, you are pressing my buttons, smart ass....

guess what I do for a living? hmmm... let me think.... yeah thats it, I do work on ducatis. Whoa who'd ever thunk I'd get a little pissed about someone ridiculing the brand of motorcycle i put food on my table with.

If I was in here ridiculing your specialty, you'd get a little upset.

Regardless, you are one of the masses that has never seen "REAL" racing from the inside so whatever the media spoonfeeds you, that now becomes your perceived reality. For instance, ducati getting a 1200cc allowance by merely complaining alot, which is what your basing your arguments on and i can only guess this is contrived from superbikeplanet or some other sensationlist racing reporter.

So let me put it this way. Do you really think that a company like ducati has to do nothing more than complain to the FIM to get 200cc's? really?

You don't think there's a multitude of lawyers and engineers with "SOUND" empirical data to back up the argument that this 200cc is necessary for a level playing field? You have no clue what's behind the scenes with engineers on a professional racing level. These people don't make changes unless there's a case study and a spreadsheet and a multitude of other things. There's no "i think" it's black or white.

Whats my point? my point is that there's alittle more thought process behind rules in professional racing than someone, like you, who say's "ducati's accelerate" differently, yes possibly, but what real data do you have to back that up? you can't make a statment like that unless you can prove it. Your view is not a scientific approach.

When your not using a scientific approach to how you look at and perceive professional motorcycle racing around you, then how in the hell can you help to define rules for a rulebook, even on an amateur level racing.

[Bartman]

Geez Ben you are way to high strung, this is just playful banter. Ducati has a very long history of using political influence to get there way and denying it is just naive, now all the OEMs have done this as well but not to the extent that I have seen Ducati do it. Of course I don't have insider info like you, I base my assumtions on years of reading and watching and being involved on club basis.
I never did want to specialize to any one brand and everybody knows that I don't have a special place in my heart for ducati or yamaha but I will work on them without any qualms at all. I don't like to make rules to suit a bike, I would prefer to make a bike to fit the rules.
Anywho sorry if I offended you but I am entitled to my thoughts and opinions, course they are just my opinions. Oh and just in case you missed it I was not belittling you so please do me the same courtesy.

[benfoxmra95]

look bart, im not trying to belittle you. You know i have strong feelings about the twins for obvious reasons, racing them, working on them etc for years...

so when you come out throwing a few jabs, youre gonna get a few back.

trust me i spent a good hour sitting staring into the distance deciding to ignore everything and not even respond with the post right before this one.

I was on the verge of not saying anything more. But I then also wanted to make a point about how strongly i feel about the rules and rule book, and how seriously other organizations take it.

These days we are taking our rule book a little more lax than we did in past years. we are a little more loose with the rulebook than we were in the past.

It was the bible and we had high respect for it, and im guilty of losing some of that respect too, but i have a new perspective of it over last two years after being away from the mra and seeing how another organization uses it.

My opinion:

I just want as much parity as possible for all the bikes, and I feel that throwing a mish mash of bikes in one class and calling it middleweight, doesn't have alot of the angles thought through.

[froth]

Watching Bart and Sexy Ben duke it out over displacement, horsepower, and twins is a lot like listening to the "evolutionists" debate the "creationists"...

I don't understand, or give enough of a shit about either to have an opinion of my own - but it sure makes for good entertainment! :lol:

OOOH! This IS fun! :P

[JohnGarc]

What about Buell in the Middleweight class? AMA? Im just sayin!!!

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

I tried looking around, but I couldn't find a succinct summary of the non-250, non-open, twins/thunder class rule proposal under consideration. Casey D., or anyone, could you post it?

IMHO, there's no point in building rules around bikes that are out of production like Buells, TLR, <'03 Ape, 996, 749R, etc. Eff 'em .. let 'em sit in the garage until they're 10 years old.

Oh, and Casey S. .. click here http://users.frii.com/jjb/aprilia/RSV1000R_dyno.jpg

[benfoxmra95]

Cheater! 87 ft lbs of torque.! Cheater, GD effen cheater...

Effoffeffer!!!!

[JohnGarc]

I knew it.... GD Tractor Harley Mofo Buells.

[dragos13]

I tried looking around, but I couldn't find a succinct summary of the non-250, non-open, twins/thunder class rule proposal under consideration. Casey D., or anyone, could you post it?

IMHO, there's no point in building rules around bikes that are out of production like Buells, TLR, <'03 Ape, 996, 749R, etc. Eff 'em .. let 'em sit in the garage until they're 10 years old.

Oh, and Casey S. .. click here http://users.frii.com/jjb/aprilia/RSV1000R_dyno.jpg

Hey Jim we are still working on the details for the class. It should be finalized by the December meeting at the latest.

Sorry for the delay.

[benfoxmra95]

Bart you are correct, this should be a heavyweight class, with the rules written for heavyweight displacement. but excluding any bike over 1000cc's

I hate the idea of writing rules around specific bikes. but if you don't want to write it as a heavyweight class and you guys decide it must go down the way your doing it and are going to write an entire section of what bikes are legal and what ones are not, then i have a list of bikes that I want allowed as well.

1999-2001 ducati 996 (117hp)
2002 ducati 998 (118hp this motor is identical in every way to the 999 motors)
2003-2006 ducati 999(118HP)
any ducati 916 that displaces 955cc's (127hp this is a special edition ducati that had sps cams)
1997-2007 honda superhawk (118hp)


I might have more bikes to come as i am still researching bikes that are outside of the ducati range. but this is my short list that comes to mind at the minute

i can prove definatively with no question that these bikes above do not make more than 130hp on a dyno. and all weigh as much if not more than the few proposed bikes that you guys listed earlier. age should not be a consideration as this is not a vintage class.

If necessary I can provide dyno sheets for all these bikes above.

I also have no experience with the buell line, so if someone would like to chime in here with buell suggestions that are roughly in the 120hp range and are heavy please do so.




Or this class should be soley written as a middleweight class and NO bikes over 855cc's allowed in.

Personally i feel it should be a middleweight class, but i do like the idea of coming to the track with a ducati 998 or 999 and not having to race against a 1098r

[Bartman]

Ben in your list of bikes would you post up what you know the HPs and torque these bikes average, not MFGs #s but yours and basic weights if you would. Would you suggest allowing all of them including the R models or just the normals. I have data on almost everything else but not all on your list.
My next request is tell me where the rulebook has gotten lax in your opinion, are we allowing to much or is it you think people are getting away with stuff and not being caught. I want serious input not only from you but anyone who sees a hole in the system we need to plug, is racing really so much more expensive than in years past. I can buy a Kawi kit ecu for about a 100 bucks over a powercommander so that is not a problem, maybe a motec or morelli system is but where do we draw the line?

[dave.gallant]

I a confused.

How did this become a heavyweight class? Can I ride my GSXR750 in it now??

How did we go down the road of it becoming 1000cc+ twins in the first place? I thought we were only talking about 675s, 848s, 749Rs, monster SVs, TZ250s, etc -- which are all not heavyweight bikes?

[benfoxmra95]

Ben in your list of bikes would you post up what you know the HPs and torque these bikes average, not MFGs #s but yours and basic weights if you would. Would you suggest allowing all of them including the R models or just the normals. I have data on almost everything else but not all on your list.
My next request is tell me where the rulebook has gotten lax in your opinion, are we allowing to much or is it you think people are getting away with stuff and not being caught. I want serious input not only from you but anyone who sees a hole in the system we need to plug, is racing really so much more expensive than in years past. I can buy a Kawi kit ecu for about a 100 bucks over a powercommander so that is not a problem, maybe a motec or morelli system is but where do we draw the line?

I think everyone will agree that the supersport rules have been blurred, there's not much difference between a supesport bike these days and a superbike, really on a set of overbore pistons. This is another threads worth of discussion, and quite honestly, I don't think we should start it up here. let's not even get into it here. really i regret making that statement now, and wish it to be for another time.

I will edit the above post with avg hp numbers I have from stock bikes that have run on my dyno.

I specifically did not list any r models because they are head and shoulders above the rest in power.

[benfoxmra95]

I a confused.

How did this become a heavyweight class? Can I ride my GSXR750 in it now??

How did we go down the road of it becoming 1000cc+ twins in the first place? I thought we were only talking about 675s, 848s, 749Rs, monster SVs, TZ250s, etc -- which are all not heavyweight bikes?

it started as a middleweight class with "SOME" 1000 cc twins thrown in and rules written for specific bikes and years.

I am arguing that it should be either:

middleweight rules with nothing over 855cc's (with no specific rules for specific bikes) no inline 4's

OR

heavyweight with everything 748cc-1000cc twins and triples (with no specific rules for specific bikes) no inline 4's

[dave.gallant]

I a confused.

How did this become a heavyweight class? Can I ride my GSXR750 in it now??

How did we go down the road of it becoming 1000cc+ twins in the first place? I thought we were only talking about 675s, 848s, 749Rs, monster SVs, TZ250s, etc -- which are all not heavyweight bikes?

it started as a middleweight class with "SOME" 1000 cc twins thrown in and rules written for specific bikes and years.

I am arguing that it should be either middleweight with nothing over 855cc's (with no specific rules for specific bikes)

OR

heavyweight with everything 748cc-1000cc twins and triples (and no specific rules for specific bikes)


855cc limit for water cooled; two stroke or four, twin or triple, no 4s.

(I think 1000cc air cooled twins should be allowed too, but I honestly don't want to argue about it. :) )

[benfoxmra95]

I a confused.

How did this become a heavyweight class? Can I ride my GSXR750 in it now??

How did we go down the road of it becoming 1000cc+ twins in the first place? I thought we were only talking about 675s, 848s, 749Rs, monster SVs, TZ250s, etc -- which are all not heavyweight bikes?

it started as a middleweight class with "SOME" 1000 cc twins thrown in and rules written for specific bikes and years.

I am arguing that it should be either middleweight with nothing over 855cc's (with no specific rules for specific bikes)

OR

heavyweight with everything 748cc-1000cc twins and triples (and no specific rules for specific bikes)


855cc limit for water cooled; two stroke or four, twin or triple, no 4s.

(I think 1000cc air cooled twins should be allowed too, but I honestly don't want to argue about it. :) )


grrrrrr....... the air cooled twins already have 300 classes they can race in

GO AWAY!

[snowblaze506]

Here it is again. This is probably the most approriate model for the class, plus some 675's. (See below)

Jim is right. The only bike that doesn't really have a class, that is still in production is the 848. If Ducati would stop making up random weights and HP for their bikes, the interweb would be a good source of facts. (Just for you, Ben, from the specs listed for the 848). ;)

However, there are many bikes in the club that would fit in a class like this that don't 'fit' well in the current structure of "under 650, spec SV" or "unlimited" twins. That's all that was being discussed before Ben and Bart got into a pissing match about who could built what cheater bike ;)

And, yes, Ben, your list of bikes would all be a great addition to the class except the 996 with a 1020 kit (?). Really? After you stated "under 1000cc"? I thought you were getting the idea here...;)

Utahsba Twins GTO class structure
a) Up to 430cc two or more cylinder two stroke, unlimited origin
b) Up to 550cc two or more cylinder two stroke, if frame is from a motorcycle manufactured for street use in North America
c) Up to 550cc single cylinder two stroke, unlimited origin
d) Up to 1000cc two cylinder four stroke four or more valves per cylinder, liquid cooled, except the Ducati 999R and equivalents (Ducati 999 is legal in this class; Ducati 999R is not)
e) Unlimited displacement air cooled, one or two cylinders

[dave.gallant]

I a confused.

How did this become a heavyweight class? Can I ride my GSXR750 in it now??

How did we go down the road of it becoming 1000cc+ twins in the first place? I thought we were only talking about 675s, 848s, 749Rs, monster SVs, TZ250s, etc -- which are all not heavyweight bikes?

it started as a middleweight class with "SOME" 1000 cc twins thrown in and rules written for specific bikes and years.

I am arguing that it should be either middleweight with nothing over 855cc's (with no specific rules for specific bikes)

OR

heavyweight with everything 748cc-1000cc twins and triples (and no specific rules for specific bikes)


855cc limit for water cooled; two stroke or four, twin or triple, no 4s.

(I think 1000cc air cooled twins should be allowed too, but I honestly don't want to argue about it. :) )


grrrrrr....... the air cooled twins already have 300 classes they can race in

GO AWAY!


Well, then they get the boot.

I honestly don't care. :)

[benfoxmra95]

Here it is again. This is probably the most approriate model for the class, plus some 675's. (See below)

Jim is right. The only bike that doesn't really have a class, that is still in production is the 848. If Ducati would stop making up random weights and HP for their bikes, the interweb would be a good source of facts. (Just for you, Ben, from the specs listed for the 848). ;)

However, there are many bikes in the club that would fit in a class like this that don't 'fit' well in the current structure of "under 650, spec SV" or "unlimited" twins. That's all that was being discussed before Ben and Bart got into a pissing match about who could built what cheater bike ;)

And, yes, Ben, your list of bikes would all be a great addition to the class except the 996 with a 1020 kit (?). Really? After you stated "under 1000cc"? I thought you were getting the idea here...;)

Utahsba Twins GTO class structure
a) Up to 430cc two or more cylinder two stroke, unlimited origin
b) Up to 550cc two or more cylinder two stroke, if frame is from a motorcycle manufactured for street use in North America
c) Up to 550cc single cylinder two stroke, unlimited origin
d) Up to 1000cc two cylinder four stroke four or more valves per cylinder, liquid cooled, except the Ducati 999R and equivalents (Ducati 999 is legal in this class; Ducati 999R is not)
e) Unlimited displacement air cooled, one or two cylinders


i edited out the 996 with 1020 cc's well before you posted this post, you were probably typing it at the same time, I had a slight moment of trying to sneak in something that i may have laying in my garage ;)

but again that was under the proposed "SPECIAL" rules write in bikes where certain bikes are allowed.


BTW, and this isn't sarcasm, but who are you? I actually don't know alot of peoples nicknames on here, and there's no name in your signature...

thanks

[benfoxmra95]

one last thought then i gotta go.

the middleweight class with 855cc limits will also give a good place for these bikes to race and get away from the 1000cc air cooled twins:

ducati 750ss (aircooled 2v)
ducati 800 (aircooled 2v)
ducati 851's (4v liquid)


i also think this class should have a minimum limit of 748cc. the sv's have their home, they can stay there.

the philosophy of this class, is middle, middle middle. nothing else it's a home for twins and triples. no inline 4's

with that phliosophy in mind and class limits of 748-855cc's then i think you have a solid class with no grey areas that solves many problems for "in between" bikes and doesn't create problems.

[Bartman]

Ben no reason to regret bringing up the rulebook, can't fix if we don't know that its broken and yes it needs to be in its own thread so I will start one later.
We had thought to include some of the older less competitive 1000s to if nothing else fill the grid and I don't think that any of the ones we were considering will be to fast, the problem with the Ducks is it is way easy to just do a motor swap with something that is not supposed to be there so that is one reason we did not include most of the bikes on your list.
It would be good if someone posts on a topic for us to know who the hell people are, I am on here all the time and still don't know who most of you are.
Bartman

[Jon]

G' damn I didn't ever mean to start such confusion and uproar by building a Bastard bike like I built. This Pierobon has caused problems in three clubs as it stands, 1)The MRA, 2) The USBA and lastly, 3) The CCS Florida, where I recently raced at the Race of Champions. There, various riders were frantically all perusing the CCS rulebook and were said to be planning on protesting me for legality should I actually win a race, I didn't but came close, They I remind, you were all riding Bimotos!
My plan for next year's to race with the MRA in ROR U and Supertwins GTO, but doubt I'll win against the 1098's or RC 8'S but I'll give it my best shot.
In the USBA in Twins GTO, KOM U and maybe Supertwins if it's decided to have such a class and in CCS in whatever class they deem my bastard bike still legal in.
The funny thing is, at the end of last season, I retired. I changed my mind only after deciding to get a really cool and fun trackday bike and going to Firebird and doing a trackday. Then I started my pursuit of yet another year of beating my head against oh, I mean racing. :lol:
Anyhow, they'll always be ongoing discussions of how to create great racing but admit this year I found it and hope next year with the creation of new classes, amendments to others that we all will again, but there's never ever a guarantee. So while I respect all who are posting and all the worthwhile discussion, I'm with Tony and I got me a big old bag of popcorn because this is getting good. My FO 42 presently makes 103 HP at 5400 odd feet elevation and weighs according to CCS/Florida's Intercomp Scales, 324 lbs with 2 gallons of gas roughly. The riders losing weight due to x wife and her but is glad to again have the MRA and it's membership as friends!
Rage on everybody,

[snowblaze506]

Hey Jon, meant to post this earlier, but congrats on some strong results in the Southeast last month. 3 podiums. On a bike that would be great for this class, but we might have to add a $10,000 claiming rule. ;)

Casey Smith MRA #75 (For Ben)

[Bartman]

Jonny it is more than just your oddball, if they all had the same displacement it would be no issue, but with aircooled and four or two valve or pushrod and every CC under the effen sun it will always be a issue.

[sheispoison]

I a confused.

How did this become a heavyweight class? Can I ride my GSXR750 in it now??

How did we go down the road of it becoming 1000cc+ twins in the first place? I thought we were only talking about 675s, 848s, 749Rs, monster SVs, TZ250s, etc -- which are all not heavyweight bikes?

That's the list of bikes I'd like to see. You're not going to have any problem filling the grid with these bikes at all because people will ride up on the SVs. Keep the 1000s in GTO.
I find it kind of stupid that when a bike becomes out dated we should just let it run down a class. Just an opinion.
carl

[Bartman]

Look at it this way Carl, when a 600 gets old it can still race in middleweight with a reasonable chance. Now that we have 1200cc twins not only is your bike getting older but it is getting smaller as well so is it unreasonable to modify the rules to let these people have a home as well.
We had people stop running the SVs due to 749r ducs running GTU, how many people stoped running RCs and TLs or even older ducs 916 to 998s with the advent of the 1198 and the RC8R.
We plan on letting the 675 come and play as well as some others but the 675 has a home where it fits very well a lot of these others do not anymore.
I understand where Brewer is coming from about making rules for obsolete bikes but if we can get more people to bust out their old twins to come out and play.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Look at it this way Carl, when a 600 gets old it can still race in middleweight with a reasonable chance.Only to a point. I don't think a CBR600F or a YZF600 are very competitive these days. Nor do I think there's anyone complaining that they need a new class for their Ninja 600.

We had people stop running the SVs due to 749r ducs running GTU, how many people stoped running RCs and TLs or even older ducs 916 to 998s with the advent of the 1198 and the RC8R. I think that's just part of racing. I had to go from a TL1000S to a TL1000R to a RSV1000R to a 1098R since I really like racing a big twin and I want to be competitive. I wouldn't have had to keep upgrading (i.e. spending money) if 1) I didn't care so much about racing twins or 2) I didn't care about being competitive.

I just think it's a little too self serving to say, "I have a 6-year-old bike and I demand you make rules so I can be competitive."

I understand where Brewer is coming from about making rules for obsolete bikes but if we can get more people to bust out their old twins to come out and play.
That's exactly why we have Modern Vintage, right? Are we trying to make this new class a pseudo-vintage class?

Will someone in thunderbike make a mess in their panties if one of these show up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rq3m_mk6KA??

[dave.gallant]

Will someone in thunderbike make a mess in their panties if one of these show up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rq3m_mk6KA??

I would mess my panties just getting to see one in person. What a sick bike.

[snowblaze506]

No one has "demanded" anything. Discussion was started about having a class structure similar to Utah's, (TwinsU, TwinsO, and Supertwins) with a WERA twist of allowing triples in with "middle weight' twins (above 650cc to 1000cc). Some have gotten caught up in the semantics of class description, middle weight vs. a "middle" displacement class (ie MRA Heavy Weight).

Build one, Jim. Race it in TwinsU, as its only a 550cc. You and Jon can get a couple more guys and have your own class, Formula Boutique. ;)

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

No one has "demanded" anything. Discussion was started about having a class structure similar to Utah's, (TwinsU, TwinsO, and Supertwins) with a WERA twist of allowing triples in with "middle weight' twins (above 650cc to 1000cc). Some have gotten caught up in the semantics of class description, middle weight vs. a "middle" displacement class (ie MRA Heavy Weight).
Good point and you're right, "demand" was too strong. The point I wanted to make is that consideration of old bikes for this class confuses the issue. It seems the main reason might to make sure we don't inadvertently allow one that has a huge advantage. (999R .. BTW, Pat's is one sweet bike)

Build one, Jim. Race it in TwinsU, as its only a 550cc. You and Jon can get a couple more guys and have your own class, Formula Boutique. ;)
:-) .. You know, for all the talk of expensive racing, the biggest cost of my Duc has been how much I bought it for (I got a rippin' deal, though). As far as operation goes (tires, fuel, oil, brakes, clutch, suspension freshening) it costs about the same as any other bigger bike, with 1/2 the number of rods, valves, injectors, and pistons.

Just don't break or crash it. :shock:

[rybo]

I've been thinking a lot about this class for a few reasons, not the least of which is that my bike is eligible for it.


I understand the point about technology marching on and the need to update machinery in order to stay competitive, and we have classes for that. Twins O is a good example, as are any of the supersport classes as is ROR. Older machinery currently has modern vintage, and that's a good thing too.

The economy hasn't been good for racing. While I personally could have gone and bought a new bike a few years ago and tried to stay competitive that way, last year and this year that simply isn't an option. Would the club rather have me go spend my money on a new bike and flake out half way through the season, or keep my old misfit and come racing in one more class?

There are a variety of formulas that yield close racing and Ben has added to a list of bikes that may work well in this class. We have classes that are displacement based, so why not try a class that has some displacement guidelines AND a list of acceptable bikes that don't fit those guidelines? There could be an exclusion list too of bikes that aren't permitted in the class too (Pat or Mike Pettiford's 999R's come to mind).

There is always going to be someone who is either clever enough or rich enough to build a bike that is at the limit of the rules, this class will be no exception just like every other class is no exception now. Ben and Bart and Aaron and several others on here certainly have the skills and or the resources to make "class killer" machines.

Looking to the AMA and their formula for Daytona Sportbike a couple years back (I'm sure done with a spreadsheet, and a lot of empirical data) the Aprilia RSV was classified with the 600's. It didn't gain any kind of huge advantage over those bikes, so I would certainly consider that it doesn't have a huge advantage over a 675 or an 848. If you build it to "brewer spec" it's a different story, but that's easy to prevent in the rules. Jason Kingham brings an older RSV and races it in modern vintage and twins O....my 748 / 850 is competitive with it, I wouldn't say that bike is massively out of place in this class.

Anyways, back to my original point - why not create a misfit class? What is there to lose?

scott

[Jon]

So where exactly if say I wanted to race my Shepherd 1000 would that thing fit? It's in pieces these days but I had considered actually racing it again but I can't imagine it being Modern Vintage legal. At the time as with the Pierobon, I imagined it fitting into various classes but it being basically a gran prix spec bike stuck to Twins and well twins classes. Is that still the case?

[dave.gallant]

So where exactly if say I wanted to race my Shepherd 1000 would that thing fit? It's in pieces these days but I had considered actually racing it again but I can't imagine it being Modern Vintage legal. At the time as with the Pierobon, I imagined it fitting into various classes but it being basically a gran prix spec bike stuck to Twins and well twins classes. Is that still the case?

That Terry Shepherd bike is still in my top 3 bikes of all time. I don't care if it has a Suzuki lug in it -- it is still so fricken cool.

(It would be legal if they allow 1000cc twins in this class BTW. I am not sure if they will or not however...)

[Jon]

As the Suzuki TLR was originally produced from 1998 until 2003 but never updated except for bold new graphics. I would imagine that it's modern vintage legal as well as my frankinbike Shepherd rendition. I will wait and see what's decided with this new Thunderbike class and I hope I still have something fitting come 2011.
It's sad for those of us who have raced these less common bikes to see them be out shadowed by modern technology and have to park em while faster bikes come out but that's goes with the territory of racing.
Hell, at this point even the 1198's have pretty much unless beaten with a money stick, been deemed obsolete and that's sent Ducati back to the drawing board for a new bore/stroke configuration if they wish to return to the competitive edge they have enjoyed in WSB. For the lowly club racer, he's left wondering what to do with his overpriced, under performing Italian artwork. At least at the end of the day, I know my Shepherd 1000 can be immortalized on a shelf within the Barber Motorsports Museum. I've just got to find someone to come up with the match for the Glaefke Racing Blue so that I can powdercoat the frame and make it proper for display.

[dave.gallant]

As the Suzuki TLR was originally produced from 1998 until 2003 but never updated except for bold new graphics. I would imagine that it's modern vintage legal as well as my frankinbike Shepherd rendition. I will wait and see what's decided with this new Thunderbike class and I hope I still have something fitting come 2011.
It's sad for those of us who have raced these less common bikes to see them be out shadowed by modern technology and have to park em while faster bikes come out but that's goes with the territory of racing.
Hell, at this point even the 1198's have pretty much unless beaten with a money stick, been deemed obsolete and that's sent Ducati back to the drawing board for a new bore/stroke configuration if they wish to return to the competitive edge they have enjoyed in WSB. For the lowly club racer, he's left wondering what to do with his overpriced, under performing Italian artwork. At least at the end of the day, I know my Shepherd 1000 can be immortalized on a shelf within the Barber Motorsports Museum. I've just got to find someone to come up with the match for the Glaefke Racing Blue so that I can powdercoat the frame and make it proper for display.

She's not a trophy Jon, she is a race bike. RACE HER!! :)

[Jon]

We'll just have to wait and see as time and money dictate what I'm going to be doing/racing come 2011 but as my sons and their summer is of importance too, we'll have to see if I race at all. It will be season 21 and after 2010 and my success with the Peirobon I'd like to continue on that. I'm working to get more performance out of her and her rider still and have a few things up our sleeves so we'll see. I if I manage to get the Shepherd bike back together may have to bring her out and do a trackday or two. The last time on her I managed to set a track record in 07' though it only lasted a bit it showed she's a pretty tamely beast. Though then again with TL engine parts more than likely drying up, I do need to keep an eye on that as well.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Though then again with TL engine parts more than likely drying up, I do need to keep an eye on that as well.
Jon, let me know if you need any. Dwayne and I have more than just a few lying around.

[Jon]

PM sent and my apologies for getting this of subject.

[froth]

I would love to see that beast back out on the track!

[Scored51]

Will someone in thunderbike make a mess in their panties if one of these show up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rq3m_mk6KA??

Build one, Jim. Race it in TwinsU, as its only a 550cc. You and Jon can get a couple more guys and have your own class, Formula Boutique.

Y'all have been arguin' about the rules so much you forgot to read them! Thunderbike would only be the start of the ruffled delicates. That little twin is already legal in every GP based class the MRA runs including all the way down to Colorado Class (aka Formula Boutique). It weighs roughly the same as Jeff Winter's RS450, and has a 1/3 more horsepower. There isn't a class in the MRA where a better nuclear weapon can't be developed armed with a money cannon. So why not try making a list of acceptable bikes for a new class with a perceived performance parity? If people don't like it, they won't show up, right? :-k

[Hotrod]

Can I bring one of these??? http://www.superbike.co.uk/news/apilia_500_vtwin_gp_bikes_for_sale_news_272795.htm l



:lol:

[rybo]

Can I bring one of these??? http://www.superbike.co.uk/news/apilia_500_vtwin_gp_bikes_for_sale_news_272795.htm l



:lol:

Sure. It's modern vintage legal too!

I give you two corners before it scares you so badly that you squirt out your NEXT meal.

:)

[Hotrod]

I know, right?

Best 2 corners of my life, tho! :twisted:

The thought of riding that thing at HPR makes me giggle.
The thought of riding it at any of the other venues makes me pee!

[Bartman]

The sad thing though is it is slow compared to a modern superbike, 2 smokes are dead and for the most part I am glad.

[Clarkie]

The sad thing though is it is slow compared to a modern superbike, 2 smokes are dead and for the most part I am glad.

HATER!

[dave.gallant]

What is the limit on water cooled two strokes for this class?

Clarkie and I have an idea...

http://www.twostrokeshop.com/RS500_9mid.jpg

[Jon]

Yeah Ducati's are good because they only have half the valves, half the pistons and half the rods but unfortunately, the damn transmissions only have half a life too. How many transmisions have those 1098/1198's been through in a year? I'd like to say it's all that torque but then again most of the 1000 multies are making as much. I suspect it's the cheese that they make their transmissions out of or maybe the wine their drinking while they make them :lol:

[Hotrod]

The sad thing though is it is slow compared to a modern superbike, 2 smokes are dead and for the most part I am glad.

uh huh, yeah, yeah... but it should be relatively competitive against 99-00 sv650 right? I mean... I think we should put it in SUPERtwinsU. It looks pretty super to me! :twisted:

So with even Bart admitting that it is no longer competitive against superbikes, it should be allowed to race down, right?? :P

[kangsoh]

The sad thing though is it is slow compared to a modern superbike, 2 smokes are dead and for the most part I am glad.

Bart's just bitter because his gimpy self has to help bump start the TZ on race weekends... Though I like to believe I'm doing him a favor by giving him his monthly workout. :D

[Bartman]

What is the limit on water cooled two strokes for this class?

Clarkie and I have an idea...

http://www.twostrokeshop.com/RS500_9mid.jpg

Any idea you or Clunky have will be shot down for the greater good.

[Clarkie]

CONSPIRACY!

[dave.gallant]

Any idea you or Clunky have will be shot down for the greater good.

http://files.myopera.com/Chyren/files/goat_tung.jpg