STGTU class

[Munch]

I understand there is/was a motion on the table the let in 848's into the Supertwins GTU class that was voted down. I have no issue with this. I understand the need to grow a class. I also recognize it might effectively kill all our SV650's.

I also understand there is a motion to remove the 749r from this class.

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind this.

The rules of this class have not changed in the last two years (before that I cannot speak). But I started racing and bought my bike because this class existed.

What I find objectionsable is, you create a class thats been running for some time. People invest in it and the class continues to run. Now, you decide to exclude a bike thats been running it in for the last two years?

If we're going to do this, you might as well kick everything out except a spec SV650, and call it a day.

[dragos13]

The members did approve the removal of the 749R however the adding of the 848 was largely disapproved.

It will go to the board next month for final decisions, but most likely will be consistant with what the members wanted.

[Munch]

Can I ask the reasoning behind the removal?

[dragos13]

I abstained from this vote as being someone who does not run twin classes.

Hopefully Rybo can chime in and detail the reasons found for removing this bike from TwinsGTU.

[Munch]

Ok, I don't clearly understand the process, but I didn't see anything like this on your agenda, the only close item was adding 848's, bullet 10.

10. Allow 850 twins into SuperTwins GTU

Again, I have no issue with this.

So when a recommendation gets denied (item 10), anyone can randomly suggest something?

[dragos13]

The two rules were suggested by Scott and Shannon Moham.

These are only rule suggestions. At the meeting, we discuss each rule and can amend them as seen fit.

In this particular case, it was approved to remove the 749R but was not approved to add the 848.

These suggestions will then go to the board for final ratification.

[JimWilson29]

deleting my post. it's not my place to argue this since i don't run stgtu. i just hope this doesnt have negative impact on entries for the class.

[dragos13]

Casey this is one we may want to discuss more considering there was only one STGTU rider at the meeting yesterday. I agree with the vote to not allow the 848, but the 749r has been part of that class for years. If we ban it from that class we lose at least 2 riders but do we gain a bunch of SV650 riders? I dont think that will happen. I realize that we did lose 650 riders years ago after we allowed the 749r and the decision back then could be viewed as the wrong decision. The highest finishing 749r was a third at round 5 and overall for the season was 11th. SV650's finished 1st, 3rd and 4th overall for the season.

I have no dog in this fight but of course it will be discussed further at the board meeting.

[dave.gallant]

I was hoping someone would step up and suggest the following instead:

Transform LWGP into Lightweight Supertwins (and continue to pay Suzuki $ here)
Transform STGTU into MWSuperTwins

..but alas, no one did.

Specific to the 749R, go stomp everyone in RORU and MWSB! That bike is phenomenal and I have seen first hand just how well both the chassis and motor work at most all tracks.

Or, if 10 Duc's show up, simply demand your own "Ducati Cup" class and run it concurrently with some other class. :)

[T Baggins]

Can I ask the reasoning behind the removal?

Basically because fielding a 120+ hp Duc in a class of 90+/- hp Kawi's and Suzuki's is unfair. Ditto on the Pierobons, and bikes of similar HP advantage. This rule change has been "in the works" for more than 4 years... it's just never passed.

[dave.gallant]

Casey this is one we may want to discuss more considering there was only one STGTU rider at the meeting yesterday. I agree with the vote to not allow the 848, but the 749r has been part of that class for years. If we ban it from that class we lose at least 2 riders but do we gain a bunch of SV650 riders? I dont think that will happen. I realize that we did lose 650 riders years ago after we allowed the 749r and the decision back then could be viewed as the wrong decision. The highest finishing 749r was a third at round 5 and overall for the season was 11th. SV650's finished 1st, 3rd and 4th overall for the season.

The reason you lost 4 SV650 riders from this class was directly because of the 749R.

If you continue to allow a 128HP motorcycle in a class originally intended for lightweight twins, many will continue to refuse to spend entry dollars in that class or return to racing SVs.

[Munch]

Thanks for the clarification Jim.

As my dog is in this fight, I guess I have to be clear with my objection. I just don't see how you take away something from the class when it's be there for the last two years.

If this motion passes in November, I'll be hanging up my MRA license/membership. Financially I cannot run with a group that sets the rules, then changes them on a whim.

And based on Dave's statement, sounds like it'll be a net gain for the club. So I should remove any objection.

[JimWilson29]

If you continue to allow a 128HP motorcycle in a class originally intended for lightweight twins, many will continue to refuse to spend entry dollars in that class or return to racing SVs.


i dont run stgtu so i will keep my mouth shut. for the club's sake i hope we don't lose entries.

[sheispoison]

I was hoping someone would step up and suggest the following instead:

Transform LWGP into Lightweight Supertwins (and continue to pay Suzuki $ here)
Transform STGTU into MWSuperTwins

..but alas, no one did.
I like this idea, the you can call it Middleweight Thunderbike and let the 675s run too!

[dave.gallant]

Thanks for the clarification Jim.

As my dog is in this fight, I guess I have to be clear with my objection. I just don't see how you take away something from the class when it's be there for the last two years.

If this motion passes in November, I'll be hanging up my MRA license/membership. Financially I cannot run with a group that sets the rules, then changes them on a whim.

And based on Dave's statement, sounds like it'll be a net gain for the club. So I should remove any objection.

I am confused; you are unable or unwilling to race your bike in MWSS, MWSB, HWSS, HWSB, RORU, MWEND, STGTO, AMGTU, or AMGTO?

What do you think about my suggestion to create a MWTwins class for next year (and simply relabel LWGP to Lightweight Twins but keep the same rules configuration)?

[dave.gallant]

I was hoping someone would step up and suggest the following instead:

Transform LWGP into Lightweight Supertwins (and continue to pay Suzuki $ here)
Transform STGTU into MWSuperTwins

..but alas, no one did.
I like this idea, the you can call it Middleweight Thunderbike and let the 675s run too!

YES!!

[Munch]

I'm ok with this idea.

Adding more = good.

Taking away whats already allowed = bad.

[sheispoison]

Is it way to late to even consider something like this for next season?

[T Baggins]

I'm ok with this idea.

Adding more = good.

Taking away whats already allowed = bad.

Don't feel bad, it's nothing personal... just Damn Ducati won't make a bike that doesn't have a significant power/displacement already built in. They do this with every model, and then beg/coerce/etc... the sanctioning bodies to allow their bikes in to the class that they intend to dominate.

FWIW, I got kicked out of LWGP (TZ250) last year, but there are still plenty of classes that my bike is eligible in.

[dave.gallant]

FWIW: If we do a MWThunderBike some year, I suggest removing the Jurgen rule and allowing the TZs back into Supertwins like they used to be. They are a twin. :)

[Munch]

I guess you're not seeing my point.

I went out, read the rules, and bought a bike two years ago to come race with the MRA. I spent a lot of money for a race bike that is piloted by an average rider. I'm happy to come in 3rd, 5th, or last. Just as long as I finish the race and go home in one piece. The botton line, I made a serious committment based on your rules.

It's just a little frustrating that there's a rules issue that you've been dealing with for four years, and out of the blue you decide to deal with it.
It doesn't sound like had I known about this motion, and had I gone to the meeting yesterday, that I woulda made any difference.

I know the club is bigger than one person, and people have to worry about how decisions impact themselves. I'm just being honest, I don't think it's fair, and yeah in the end if I don't like the rule changes, I'll can take my ball (and race entry $$) and go home.

[Scored51]

I was hoping someone would step up and suggest the following instead:

Transform LWGP into Lightweight Supertwins (and continue to pay Suzuki $ here)
Transform STGTU into MWSuperTwins

..but alas, no one did.

Specific to the 749R, go stomp everyone in RORU and MWSB! That bike is phenomenal and I have seen first hand just how well both the chassis and motor work at most all tracks.

I like this idea, the you can call it Middleweight Thunderbike and let the 675s run too!

This was proposed last year, was largely recommended by the attending rules committee, and was passed on to the board for ratification. What resulted in the rulebook was the expulsion of the TZ250 and the largest of the air cooled Ducati twins (+950cc) from LWGP. The Trumpet 675 was not allowed into STU because it said to "already qualified for eight other classes."

[Desmodromico]

I can see Munch's point as next year I will be an expert slow type guy, you can say the 749R or 675 is eligible for a ton of classes, but me running ROR-U or even MWSB is guaranteeing me a last place with likely no one to even race with. Supertwins typically is a little slower pace and usually some good battles through the pack for every level and less aggressive riding than AM or NOV classes which is why I was bummed I couldn't run it this year.

I actually looked back and the same discussion was had last year, I brought up the 675 and Thunderbike thing but it was deemed to have too much power. Again that is relative as bikes continue getting bigger with more HP every year, seems the rapid advances of the 600's is a main reason why no one runs a 750 4cyl anymore. The SV would seem to be the bike of choice in LWGP but even removing the 749R from STGTU you could still make a worked standard 749 which could easily have 30hp on an SV if someone really just wanted to work the rules.

Assuming we add the Ninja Cup I can see where SV guys would feel they got the shaft this year. Maybe we could replace Sportsman with another lightweight class? Can we do a Ninja class and an SV class at the same time in two waves?

[dave.gallant]

This was proposed last year, was largely recommended by the attending rules committee, and was passed on to the board for ratification. What resulted in the rulebook was the expulsion of the TZ250 and the largest of the air cooled Ducati twins (+950cc) from LWGP. The Trumpet 675 was not allowed into STU because it said to "already qualified for eight other classes."

An R6 is already legal for every class except RORO (which it will be legal for next year most likely); how does that really matter how many other classes it can run in? A 749R is legal for all of the same classes and is arguably a faster motorcycle.

There seems to be interest in a MWThunderbike class which would entail 675s,748/9/853/848s/Peironbonbonbons/Buel/other Ducati-CrapBags(tm) as well as anyone from the LWTwins class that would want to play. The 675 may kick the crap out of all of the other bikes in there (especially when ridden by Brad), but I think a 675 versus a well ridden 848 or 749R (Shane) may give him a decent run. At least this proposed class is a great deal more level than a 749R versus a 650cc ladies sport touring machine.

I don't want to fix something that is not broken nor limit the classes the interesting and unique bikes can run in, but TwinsU was severely broken. These types of discussions are the step needed to grow and adapt as a club. I dislike Hot Carl as much as the next guy, but I think a "Formula Oddball" class would be hella cool. If anyone actually showed up and raced it.

(You can try and flip me off Carl, but we all know you can't do that with those casts on your fingers. How do you scratch your ass in the morning anyway?)


Oh, and a note to all new riders who don't know me: Twins, GP bikes, and all other bikes Ben Fox would coin a "turd" hold a special place in my heart and I say everything above with fun and respect. In fact, I would love to ride a 748R, 848, or 675 given the chance, just like everyone else on the grid yet are too embarrassed to admit it. :)

[Munch]

Like I said before, I do not know the policy for how things get changed. I assumed that it had to be brought up (like others were in the Rules and Tech forum), discussed in the rules committee meeting (this past Sunday) and then voted on. Seems like we skipped step 1?

As as I re-read Casey's post:

Deadline for suggestions: Oct 1st
Committee Meeting: Oct 17th 1pm
Location: Walnut Room

Shouldn't this be on the agenda for 2011, as it was post-Oct 1 suggestion?

Here were the rule suggestions I saw, and was referring to:

Current rule change suggestions:
1. Allow addition of slipper clutches in Supersport for bikes that don't come with one standard from the factory.
2. Allow replacement of windscreen with unrestricted origin.
3. Allow full exhaust pipe wrapping.
4. Combine ROR GTU and GTO classes and go back to the "One Premier Class" format.
5. Assign top 10 number plates based on Clubman championship as opposed to ROR GTO finishing.
6. Creation of Ninja 250 Cup class.
7. Creation of Formula 40 class.
8. Remove Sportsman class.
9. Change 4hr community service requirements.
10. Allow 850 twins into SuperTwins GTU
11. Replace HWSB and HWSS with Middle and Open Modified production classes..

[Scored51]

Shouldn't this be on the agenda for 2011, as it was post-Oct 1 suggestion?
Here were the rule suggestions I saw, and was referring to:
10. Allow 850 twins into SuperTwins GTU

The changes to the twins class was the above line item. Once a proposal is made, the committee discusses and has the ability to amend the original suggestion in any way the discussion warrants at the meeting. We will all have to wait and see what is ratified by the board, but with the elimination of the 749R, non-entry of the 848, and removal of the air cooled Ducs over 922cc it has pushed the STU class far further towards a lightweight twins class than any other change in recent years. The issue I see with this is it doesn't go the extra step to provide a replacement class for these true middleweight twins. But that wasn't suggested and as a new suggestion cannot be introduced at the meeting. However a loophole does exist as the twins classes are actually GP based (for whatever that is worth). Meaning downsizing and refitting parts of unlimited origin is legal. So use your imagination, but it boils down to how much are you willing to gamble on your bike build being legal and the level of enforcement from within the riders on the grid.

Two cents worth of opinion typed on four cents of paper.

[T Baggins]

I see this post in the Rule Change Thread:

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:08 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.4.1.3
I propose the John Galafke rule.............


From unlimited displacement, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled to.............up to 990cc two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder

Eliminate the 749R from STGTU[/b]

(edited at original posters request)


I can't tell from looking at it when the edit was made... so....

IF the recommendation DID NOT COME before the rules meeting - then I totally agree that Munch has a valid gripe. We do have the ability, whenever we come together as a group, to change the direction of the club at just about any time... however... that said, if nobody gave fair notice that this was intended to be one of the rule changes - then should we accept it?

I was under the impression, originally, that this was a documented and "known" rule change suggestion.

I personally don't think the 749R belongs in the class, but due process is due process...

[T Baggins]

...The botton line, I made a serious committment based on your rules.

Actually, it's ALL of our rules - and the members are the ones who make them - don't shoot the messenger...

[Munch]

...The botton line, I made a serious committment based on your rules.

Actually, it's ALL of our rules - and the members are the ones who make them - don't shoot the messenger...

You're right, it's our rules, thanks Tony.

I'm going to remove my objection. It's not worth the debate.

I'm gonna go race with Jon in the ousted Ducati Club in Arizona!

[dave.gallant]

...The botton line, I made a serious committment based on your rules.

Actually, it's ALL of our rules - and the members are the ones who make them - don't shoot the messenger...

You're right, it's our rules, thanks Tony.

I'm going to remove my objection. It's not worth the debate.

I'm gonna go race with Jon in the ousted Ducati Club in Arizona!

Do you think we could get 10 bikes on the "grid" consisting of MW Twins and Triumphs for the first weekend next year?

If so, then as I understand it, MRA members can essentially create MW Thunderbike on the fly as stated by the MRA rulebook. (I think? I have never actually seen this take place...)

The same holds true for the CB160s or the Ninjettes.

I am not sure if it counts for rider classification classes however (eg: 10 guys over the age of 50 who want their own class).

[T Baggins]

...The botton line, I made a serious committment based on your rules.

Actually, it's ALL of our rules - and the members are the ones who make them - don't shoot the messenger...

You're right, it's our rules, thanks Tony.

I'm going to remove my objection. It's not worth the debate.

I'm gonna go race with Jon in the ousted Ducati Club in Arizona!

I guess you didn't read the previous post...? The one where I said that IF the rule change wasn't properly suggested, and there wasn't fair notice - that maybe we shouldn't allow it? Again, I was under the impression that it WAS part of the rule change recommendations. I want to do what's fair. I didn't agree that they kick my TZ250 out, but that's what they wanted. I didn't take it personal.

Look Munch, I'm not trying to hassle you... I'm just saying that collectively the members of this club make the rules. About 35 people were at the rules meeting - it wasn't just one guy who has a thing against Ducati's.... Just trying to help you understand the process man.

[sheispoison]

I don't want to fix something that is not broken nor limit the classes the interesting and unique bikes can run in, but TwinsU was severely broken. These types of discussions are the step needed to grow and adapt as a club. I dislike Hot Carl as much as the next guy, but I think a "Formula Oddball" class would be hella cool. If anyone actually showed up and raced it.

(You can try and flip me off Carl, but we all know you can't do that with those casts on your fingers. How do you scratch your ass in the morning anyway?)
How wrong you are Dave...
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/sheispoison/photo-3.jpg

However, on a more serious note... I know of at least 4 675s that would definitely run this, possibly 6 if it's run on a Sunday. I haven't heard any down side to this the way Dave (although he is a total dick) laid it out. It sounds like win win to me.
carl

[Munch]

Tony, no worries man. I'm the lone trout swimming upstream. I know if we polled the riders in the class, I'd be the only only to want to keep the r in, as I'm the only one running it.

I don't want this to turn into watergate to see who suspiciously edited the post on the night of October 1st.

It's not worth the trouble. As Chris pointed out, the group has the discretion to change a suggestion as needed.

So either way its a moot issue.

Know anyone that wants a good deal on a 749r?

[Munch]

Carl, not sure if you included Sam Robert's 675 in your count, but I'm guessing he'd be in!

Test edit.

[snowblaze506]

Gotta say...i didn't see anything about ruling out 749r's, just the adding of up to 850cc twins.

I did see the doing away with 2 of the 3 classes my 998cc twin fits in. Although, those are the two I fight not to be last in (Hwss,Hwsb). The thread proposed Mw Thunderbike could be a catch all for most of us not running the "standards". 250ringding,675,636,748,749,848, and maybe the 3-5 aprilias that are around. All in the guesstimated 120hp range. I'll even run the old one. Hell, I'll bring both. We can start an 'Aprilia Class'! (Brewer, Jim, Sioban, Casey (2), Nigel, John)

Just throwing this out, since we're talking about changing rules after the deadline. :P he he he

[Scored51]

I looked back and the "Ducati exclusions" was the post right after Casey had reminded everyone of the Friday midnight deadline. So it was suggested a little under 7 hours before the cutoff by all appearances.

I think I now see where I might have had better luck with my twins proposal from last year. While I suggested separating out the SV clan as lightweights and the Ducs/675/TZ's as middleweights, the proposal didn't include an additional class to run the middleweights. At the time I thought it would create more of a burden on the schedule to add a Thunderbike class so my suggestion simply changed the nature of Twins GTU and left the lightweights in Lightweight GP.

[dave.gallant]

I looked back and the "Ducati exclusions" was the post right after Casey had reminded everyone of the Friday midnight deadline. So it was suggested a little under 7 hours before the cutoff by all appearances.

I think I now see where I might have had better luck with my twins proposal from last year. While I suggested separating out the SV clan as lightweights and the Ducs/675/TZ's as middleweights, the proposal didn't include an additional class to run the middleweights. At the time I thought it would create more of a burden on the schedule to add a Thunderbike class so my suggestion simply changed the nature of Twins GTU and left the lightweights in Lightweight GP.

Well, there we go.

It was essentially suggested last year, well before the October 1, 2010 cut off!

[hcr25]

Munch, you stated the rule change was unfair. Do you really think a 749R racing against a sv 650 is fair? A stock 749R makes more horsepower then a stock sv, hell it makes more then Mohams superbike sv. It is a midleweight bike. That is why it was raced in world supersport against 600's.

I also do not have a dog in this fight but i did for years ago. I was one of the four guys who sold his sv because of the 749r. We as a club didnt want to change the rule to exclude the one rider in the club who had a 749r from the class. So instead of losing one we lost four. Not a very good decision for the club.

[Munch]

Mike, yeah. I do. I'm going with the rules that were inplace when I started racing. I objected to how they are going about changing them.

But you obviously missed my OTHER point:

"I'm going to remove my objection. It's not worth the debate."

Close the thread.

[rybo]

Hey Munch,

First things first, I edited the post in question, but it had nothing to do with the 749 R, it had to do with correcting a typo. The original post mentioned 999CC as the limit for the Air Cooled bikes, when the poster intended 990CC. He asked me to edit the post.

I want to say that I appreciate you bringing your objection. This is your club and you are a valued member of the club.

I posted the results of the rule change committee and the recommendations so that members COULD have a view of what the committee suggested to the board.

I'm not sure we've ever done that before, but it's part of the "more informed" MRA that I hope we continue to have.

Personally I've always viewed SuperTwins GTU as our MIDDLEWEIGHT twins class. LWGP is the LIGHTWEIGHT twins class in my humble opinion. Last year we made THAT class a safe haven for SV's by eliminating the 250GP bikes and large air cooled twins from the class.

As I thought more about this today (before I saw your post) I came up with the following question in my own mind: "Why are we kicking twins out of a class called SuperTwins?" Is a 749R a contender for a STO win against a 1098R? Riders being equal, no. Is a Pierobon F042 a contender for an STO win...see above. Is it the MRA's fault that SV riders CHOOSE to RACE UP into a middleweight class on their bike? No, it's no different than Dalton or Josh racing 600's up into ROR-O.

When the vote came to kick the Pierobon out it was inevitable that the 749R get booted too, as it's a more capable bike than the F042 is.

This vote also kicks out the 1000 SuperSport, which we have racing in our club.

The crux of this argument comes down to the following question:

"Is SuperTwins GTU a lightweight Twins Class or a Middleweight Twins Class?"

If we deem it to be a lightweight twins class then what is LWGP?

I realize that you wish to withdraw your objection, but I respectfully wish to continue the discussion.

[Munch]

I looked back and the "Ducati exclusions" was the post right after Casey had reminded everyone of the Friday midnight deadline. So it was suggested a little under 7 hours before the cutoff by all appearances.

I think I now see where I might have had better luck with my twins proposal from last year. While I suggested separating out the SV clan as lightweights and the Ducs/675/TZ's as middleweights, the proposal didn't include an additional class to run the middleweights. At the time I thought it would create more of a burden on the schedule to add a Thunderbike class so my suggestion simply changed the nature of Twins GTU and left the lightweights in Lightweight GP.

Well, there we go.

It was essentially suggested last year, well before the October 1, 2010 cut off!

Not quite, it was edited by someone other than TRK, and possibly after the deadline. But Dave I was corrected that rules can be canged at the discretion of the board.

When you edit a post, it'll put in the time stamp on when it changed..

For example, I edited a post, and you can see the timestamp info.

"Last edited by Munch on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total"

Not the "generic" message - (edited at original posters request).

If TRK edited his own request, it would show it. My guess is someone added the "exclude 749r section". But thats only my behind the grassy-nole theory.

And by the way, I do think the moon-landing was also faked! :D

But back to Dave's point, its a moot issue anyway - so I can have fun with the games played on an edited post.



And Scott, thanks for your thoughts. So I guess we can continue :)

I should have attended Sunday's meeting, but based on the rule changes proposed, I didnt have any concerns. I was told that the 749r was kicked out, but only after the 848 getting in was denied. When I looked at Casey's list, item 10 was a suggestion to allow 848's in the class - no mention of excluding the 749r. When I read Scott's updated post today, I saw my bike was essentially out. When I look to see when the "suggestion" was added to the thread, things don't look right.

And in the end, I decided one person fighting for a bike to continue running in a class that I've run for two years didn't make sence, hench I withdrew my objection.

My only suggestion going forward is alot more care should be put into class changes. I didn't pay any attention to it myself until this issue came up. However, these decisions have significant impact to the club and the racers in the class in the end. I bought my bike to run STGTU, had I known it was going to get kicked out, I woulda bought a POS 600 and I wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm sure Jon wouldn't had invested a lot of time and money in his Pierobon if he knew it wasn't going to be eligable, but he built a machine that was eligable under the rules of our class. But I can see why he stepped out. Shane did the same with his, as it was also eligable under the rules.

And I'll do the same, as I don't want to be the single guy bitching and moaning. But the rules are what they are. I didn't get the 749r into the class. I'm just playing by the rules we ourselves have created.

And honestly, if item 10 was "Removal of 749r from STGTU", you bet I woulda have been there on Sunday. It may not have made a difference, but I would have alot more respect knowing a rule change was potentially in the works, and I could voice my opinion because it directly affects me. I also could say, yeah, they heard me, and I understand why the rule was changed. End of story, but unfortunately thats not how this change went down.

[Fastt Racing]

Hey. Looks like I'm selling my 2002 RSV, but if Novice's can run this "old crap Italian bike" class, I might keep it and get my but kicked by Brewer every weekend. It would be better than gettin my but kicked by a bone stock R6.

[gixxermike]

However, on a more serious note... I know of at least 4 675s that would definitely run this, possibly 6 if it's run on a Sunday. I haven't heard any down side to this the way Dave (although he is a total dick) laid it out. It sounds like win win to me.
carl

Carl, you can add another Duc to that mix, I have a 748 motor now too. :shock:

[froth]

Sooo, if we do it right, and add another twins class, I can go out and have fun in another class (yes, I'll have my head handed to me again, but hey, racing up on the SV is a blast). Cool.

[dragos13]

Munch, I would like to personally apologize for not keeping the brief list of proposed rule changes up to date. I had them all updated until the day of Oct 1st where several were submitted at the last minute. I can tell you, that rule was there prior to midnight on Oct 1st posted by Shannon Moham. The update was done to clarify the cc limit. Even with the incorrect limit suggested, the rule was valid to become discussion at the meeting. At that point, the people who show up to the meeting can twist and turn a rule any way they deem appropriate. That is why it is very important all riders show up to these meetings. It is then brought to the Board for discussion in December. Many rules have been approved at the meeting but then denied by the board. Any arguement you continue to make will help in the final decision.

[dave.gallant]

Actually Munch, I wasn't saying this discussion was moot. This discussion is probably very influential in regards to the actual changes that will be enacted next year!

I was being a bit facetious and saying that since the rule change I suggested that got Carl all hot and bothered was very close to something that was suggested last year. (Ignore Carl for a little bit though. He gets out of hand from time to time). Since it was suggested last year, it made the cut off for rules suggestions for this year...?

Yes, it is a bit of a stretch. But, with the rider-focused (and economic) concerns of late, the Board may be more apt to find ways to be more inclusive.

That said, the CC limit better be 852cc (not 853) so Rybo can't ride his cheater bike!

[Munch]

Thanks Casey and Dave for the clarifications. You guys both do alot for the club, so definitely don't think I'm looking to point the finger at a technicality.

I realize there's a lot of bikes and a bunch of configurations to keep in mind when settings these rules.

I guess we'll see where the chips fall in November.

Thanks again for the insight!

[dave.gallant]

So, just to recap, in case there is any confusion in what I suggested earlier in this thread:

* LWGP already removed the TZ250s which essentially lends this class to the SV650 and other true lightweight bikes. I suggested leaving this class as-is.

* Supertwins GTU is modified to become a middleweight class that allows up to 850cc desmo 4 valve water cooled engines, unlimited air cooled engines, unlimited two-stroke engines (twin or not), and up to 700cc three cylinder engines. (read: overbored 748s, 848s, Peribons, Buells, Trumpet 675s, TZ/RS250s)

I only suggested this because of the modifications made to LWGP last season which allows an SV650 to now race in a class that is not populated by true race bred machines such as the 749R or TZ250. This suggestion also provides a place for those middleweight bikes to race against (similar) other motorcycles and a way to keep all Ducati riders from causing a full blown holy war.

I think Ben Fox would approve of this message. (He can't be here right now. He is in front of a mirror preparing for his next TV appearance with the AMA)

[Hotrod]

and a way to keep all Ducati riders from causing a full blown holy war.



And then we can change the name of the class from STGTU to STFU!


HAHAHA,

No, Munch... Not directed at you personally. Just having a laugh! :lol:


although... I am one of those annoying sv riders ...

[Munch]

Dave, I like where you are going with this!

I still think we need a shot of Ben with Wolverine in Larrys pits- they coud be twins! Rumor has it he was the shoe in for his double if they film another movie ;)

[Scored51]

So, just to recap, in case there is any confusion in what I suggested earlier in this thread:

* LWGP already removed the TZ250s which essentially lends this class to the SV650 and other true lightweight bikes. I suggested leaving this class as-is.

* Supertwins GTU is modified to become a middleweight class that allows up to 850cc desmo 4 valve water cooled engines, unlimited air cooled engines, unlimited two-stroke engines (twin or not), and up to 700cc three cylinder engines. (read: overbored 748s, 848s, Peribons, Buells, Trumpet 675s, TZ/RS250s)

I only suggested this because of the modifications made to LWGP last season which allows an SV650 to now race in a class that is not populated by true race bred machines such as the 749R or TZ250. This suggestion also provides a place for those middleweight bikes to race against (similar) other motorcycles and a way to keep all Ducati riders from causing a full blown holy war.

I think Ben Fox would approve of this message. (He can't be here right now. He is in front of a mirror preparing for his next TV appearance with the AMA)

Been there, done that. This was exactly what was proposed LAST year. Here's the link: http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=9674

...And the explanation is the 8th post down in this thread. http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=9739

However, I believe this one was missed at the meeting this year. LWSS/LWSB http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=11540

[dave.gallant]

...which was my other point.

My "suggestion" wasn't too late for this years rules deadline because it was made last year. :D

[Scored51]

So you're sayin' great minds have the same screws loose? :wink:

[dave.gallant]

So you're sayin' great minds have the same screws loose? :wink:

Exactly!!

[sheispoison]

It sounds to me like between the 8 triumphs, 3-5 Ducs, 2-3 two fiddys, and the countless SVs that would race up that we have more than enough to field a grid. We're not really adding any classes. I don't see why this shouldn't happen! The board can still approve it if they want to since it was technically brought up before the deadline (last year) right?

[TRK]

Just to clarify things. The edit was because of a typo. 749R was in the post from the get go.
-Shannon

[snowblaze506]

Don't forget about the 3-5 stock Aprilia RSV's that are on par with those Duc's (I was passed on the straight by that pesky 749r and 748ish bike)and probably out gunned by the 675's. :D

Should we start another thread for "MW Thundrbike'?

[Munch]

Thanks Shannon.

I still think to moon landing was faked ;)

[benfoxmra95]

Chiming in a little late here but:

90hp sv weighs? 350ish?

120hp 749r weighs, 390+.

has anyone picked up a 40lb dumbell lateley? I have...and really wouldnt want to strap it on my bike.


The hp discussion/argument about the sv and ducati is not as telling as it really should be IMO.

Rybo how much does your bike weigh?
Moham?
Munch?

Show the hp to weight ratios on each of the bikes in question then make some valid arguments based on that, because it tells a real story, not just "this bike makes xxxhp". And it's no match.

In general a race prepped 848 will weigh more than the 749r it has a larger swingarm and frame tube diameter, both are larger in general size than an SV just more mass everywhere.

The 848's on the grids in AMA dsb had to weigh 385, minimum, at the beginning of the season. Then that weight requirement was lowered mid season as the 848's were struggling against the 600's lowered down just 5 lbs, i think.

regardless, it's an act of a wallet of god to get a ducati to weigh less than 380lbs. were talking carbon tank and bodywork and mag wheels


I'm not arguing one way or the other just stating the facts that should not be overlooked.

[JWinter]

No, I like STGTU as it is with the new rules!

Let's get a new class called Thunderbike!!! I thought this would go through last year, but it didn't. Run it with the middleweight twins, triples, GP bikes, and the exotics (like Turpins bike).

By the way I seen the sneak photos of the new BMW middleweight triple!

Jeff

[dave.gallant]

By the way I seen the sneak photos of the new BMW middleweight triple!

Jeff

Pics and specs now or I steal your BBM!

[benfoxmra95]

BTW, that said, it wouldn't be that hard would it be for the MRA truck to carry around a set of scales to each race to weigh bikes for a required minimum weight set up in the rules.

I think some weight rules might be inline for next season rule changes.

Im not saying we need to be the AMA, but, they have installed some weight rules in their rule book for a good reason, and maybe it's time to look at the idea of it.

That is all.....I have to get to LA, for the next x-men movie filming.

[rybo]

Rybo how much does your bike weigh?
Moham?
Munch?



My bike currently makes 107HP
It has mag wheels and fiberglass bodywork with a stock steel tank. I'd guess it's in the 415-420 LB range without gas in it, but to be totally honest I've never weighed it. I'll see if I can get it on a scale in the next few days.

[Scored51]

BTW, that said, it wouldn't be that hard would it be for the MRA truck to carry around a set of scales to each race to weigh bikes for a required minimum weight set up in the rules.

I think some weight rules might be inline for next season rule changes.

Honest Quesion: Don't you think that may be a little hard to enforce if a significant number of bikes decide to ride up? From what I understand (read: paddock BS) the Pierobon is under 310 lbs, but could fit nicely into a middleweight performance index... and the GP thumper of JWinter at little more than 200 lbs roughly has the same power to weight ratio as Rybo's Duc. Every bike would need to be reviewed agreed upon before it became eligible. Then if X bike started winning races would be "reclassified" with more weight back into the pack. Seems like it could open a more subjective type of championship.



That is all.....I have to get to LA, for the next x-men movie filming.

Wow! They needed a stand-in for Storm? :shock:

[dave.gallant]

Wow! They needed a stand-in for Storm? :shock:

Dude, stop that.

She is hot, and I don't want images of Ben flashing through my mind at those special moments of my day.

[Hotrod]

90hp sv weighs? 350ish?
749r 120 hp at 390?



Dude... Really? You know as well as any one that a 90 h.p. SV is about as rare as an honest politician. They just don't stay together. I bet there aren't 2 in our club at that level.

Mine is a bone stock, tired street motor with flatslides. I would bet good money that I don't even clear 70 hp.

40lbs, assuming that number is accurate is more than offset by DOUBLE the HP.

I have no problem riding up and having fun. I do it all the time, but lets call a turd a turd.
Anyone trying to suggest parity between those two bikes has never spent time on what Dave aptly named a "Ladies Touring Bike".

I am all for thunderbike as a new race class that I can race up into against true middleweights, just as I do now against open class hardware in STGTO.

Just don't expect me to believe that anyone seriously thinks those two are on even footing.

[Hotrod]

2004 749R

Max Power 116.00 HP (84.7 kW) at 10500 RPM
Max Torque 80.00 Nm (58.82 ft*lbs) at 8500 RPM
Power/Weight Ratio 0.6 Hp/Kg
Top Speed -
Acceleration (dart, speedup) time
0-100 km/h 3.3 seconds
0-60 mph 3.1 seconds
# 1/4 mile 11.3 seconds
-
# 60 to 140 km/h, highest gear


SV650
Model 1999-2002 2003-2006
1/4 Mile 12.04 sec @ 107.22 mph (172.55 km/h) 11.82 sec @ 106.02 mph (170.62 km/h)
0-60 mph 3.76 sec 3.65 sec
0-100 mph 9.94 sec
Roll-On, 60-80 mph 4.44 sec
Fuel Mileage 45-55 mpg (4.28-5.23 L/100km) 45-59 mpg (3.98-5.23 L/100km)
Range (exc. Reserve) ~165 miles (266 km) ~186 miles (299 km) -




0-60 3.1 vs 3.76

1/4 mile times 11.3 vs 12.04

That gap is a lifetime coming off of every corner on the track...

I love the idea of a separate middleweight thunderbike class. There seems to be a lot of interest and serves more riders better than allowing a fox (hehehe) in the henhouse of an existing little bike class.

Allowing the 749R into STGTU does nothing to address the 848 riders, the 675 riders, the Ape riders and the TZ's.
Let 'em have their own playground and I will come race up and get spanked.

[T Baggins]

THUNDERBIKE! THUNDERBIKE! THUNDERBIKE! THUNDERBIKE! :D

[dave.gallant]

THUNDERBIKE! THUNDERBIKE! THUNDERBIKE! THUNDERBIKE! :D

???

http://sadisticcycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/road-warrior-pic.jpg

[T Baggins]

No Dave, that's ThunderDOME... God you're such a douche sometimes! :lol:

[Desmodromico]

Nah, thunderdome was the one with the me master he blaster dudes in the pig crap...we could use AC/DC as the theme music over the PA, anyhow I agree...

THUNDERBIKE THUNDERBIKE THUNDERBIKE

[JWinter]

The HP/weight ratio idea only applies when you have a large amount of riders on the same level...Like MotoGP or AMA for that matter. On the club level we are all at different levels/styles of rider ability. Yes anyone of us could be better if it was our full time job to race. In the real world of club level racing we are doing what we can to hopefully level the playing field. In the end no matter how hard we try someone is going to win the race and we can't keep trying to stack the deck in our favor in order to keep one or two specific racers always winning races. That is why the exotic twins that Shane and Jon showed up with have created some controversy. I truly believe we should offer at least 1 sprint class per weight division (light, middle, heavyweight, and open) in supersport, superbike, and Grand Prix. Or in the case of the lightweight division offering a lightweight twins specific class which twins U is basically serving as.

Munch has a good point about the purchase of machinery. We need to have some consistency with our classes and not react due to one guy showing up with a super trick bike.

Sorry I am starting to ramble,

Jeff

[Scored51]

THUNDERBIKE! THUNDERBIKE! THUNDERBIKE! THUNDERBIKE! :D

HO!!!

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg77/Priority51/thundercats.jpg

[Jon]

While at the ROC in FL this past weekend I had the opportunity to weigh my Pierobon on certified scales and regardless of what I, BMS or anyone else has said mine weighed in at a feathery 324 pounds. Not really the weight I was hoping for and quite a bit over what I was told but regardless since I don't race with the club and any infringement on the name Thunderbike probably wouldn't rest to well with CCS/ASRA, I would look for another name for your new class.
Cheers,

[Jon]

Also, to clarify my intentions. I had raced up until this season for 20 years with the MRA and actually enjoyed it without any true controversy,but will not be showing up and spoiling your show with my bike or myself. So I wouldn't really worry about what you do with any of your classes. As long as you make classes that are suitable for everything and allow everyone to win something I'm sure everything will be alright.

[Bartman]

Jon I am sick of hearing you bitch about us when at every turn we have tried to address any grievance you may have but you just keep giving us BS excuses and he said she said crap. E fucking nuff already, tell us what we can do if anything to fix your issue or let it EFFIN be. I still consider you a friend but you are making it really hard, come clean and tell us who or what you really have a issue with, for the love of God please or leave us to our own problems.
Oh and instead of the Thunderbike class I say we call it the Misfits or the Euro Trash class(my personal favorite).

Bartman

[JWinter]

Can we just revoke Jon from posting anymore? I agree with Bart enough is enough. I have seen 3 year olds act more mature. I am to the point now instead of trying to help Jon out with his frustrations, to just telling him to get a clue! If I was called a cheater by someone I would tell them to protest or shut-up. I wouldn't drag out a 1 year campaign of being the club asshole on the forums. This club is full of great people that I call friends...So Jon you can either be apart of our club family or piss off.


Sorry my bad! I mistakenly posted that BMW is making a new triple middleweight. The new middleweight triple that is coming out is called the F3 and it is being produced by MV Agusta. Those damn Europeans are building some cool shit in recent years.

Jeff

[Jon]

Jeez boys and girls,
I simply stated that infringing upon the name Thunderbike maybe a bit of a bad idea since 1) it's already taken with an established set of rules 2) it's an CCS/ASRA class and the MRA isn't a CCS licensed club and 3) that I really don't have any agenda so you can take my advice or leave it. Where exactly I stated anything about me cheating was read into it by you both. If I wish to come race with your club I will. I have done nothing to hurt it in anyway and why you would ban me is because what exactly?
Bart, I understand why you have such a problem with me and always will but you Jeff you I need to speak with personally as you son have some serious issues.

[dave.gallant]

You guys are doing just fine, but this is just a friendly reminder to play nice with each other.

Carry on.

[dave.gallant]

Ok, I'm jumping in here too:

Is Thunderbike trademarked?

If so, how is this possible?

http://www-cache.daz3d.com/store/item_file/10052/image_medium.jpg

Or:

http://www.thunderbike.de/

Or:

http://www.krisbecker.com/nctb.html

Or:

http://compare.ebay.com/like/190430411196?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

I love CCS. They are a fantastic organization. Maybe we can use their name to create parity across the organizations? You know, like "Open Supersport" or "Middleweight Superbike" that WERA, CCS, CMRA,...all use?

Or, maybe a more suiting name is Pro Blunder?

Err, I mean, PRO THUNDER.

The AMA doesn't even exist anymore as it existed then. Is that name trademarked after the racing organization portion was sold off?

(I love the off season. You guys are so much more fun during the off season!)

[Hotrod]

I stick with my guns. Best name (and it is becoming more and more applicable) is ...





S... T... F... U... !


:roll: :lol:

[rybo]

I stick with my guns. Best name (and it is becoming more and more applicable) is ...





S... T... F... U... !


:roll: :lol:

In that case I say follow your own advice and race.

:)

[Hotrod]

Ummmm.... I did, and I will... Silly. :D


FARK! Is it May yet? I already have my count down clock on my desk! :D

[rybo]

Ummmm.... I did, and I will... Silly. :D


FARK! Is it May yet? I already have my count down clock on my desk! :D

Come on I ride a Ducati....I just a little dense is all.

I need some more time before I have to make licenses again, can I have one more week off please?


(btw You're still talking!)

[Scored51]

Sorry my bad! I mistakenly posted that BMW is making a new triple middleweight. The new middleweight triple that is coming out is called the F3 and it is being produced by MV Agusta. Those damn Europeans are building some cool shit in recent years.

Jeff

THREAD JACK!!
Well, your bad may not be the case. From what I've found, BMW has squashed the rumors about the S6RR saying the profit margins are smaller with the middleweight bikes and the return on investment wouldn't be there. However, some of the industry media thinks they are trying a little too hard to kill this off (as was the policy with the S1000RR). If you look, you will find that www.s600rr.de is registered to BMW. Here's a teaser.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg77/Priority51/Motorcycle/S6RR.jpg

Now back to Jon, Thunderbikes, or whatever we were talking about.

[twowheelslide]

As an SV rider also, I agree with the formation of a middleweight twins class. Most bikes in our club are competitive in a great deal of classes. The lightweigts have 3. I am also going to run Modern Vintage U next year. But I consider that riding up, as 2001 R6 is not a slow bike. I also understand that everyone is out there to have a good time. Last year I worked Saturdays, that left me with only STGTU, so I rode in AmU also. Track time is what it's all about. In either case, one or 2 749r's aren't going to ruin my day, I've beat them before and will do it again.

P.S. Moham's SV is beatable, it just takes a lot of traffic!

Mike 788

[JWinter]

Sorry Jon for being a little harsh. Maybe you & me could make-up and you could let me race your Pierobon.

Jeff

[Tornado]

I think we all need to hug this one out. :) I think the 749R should not be in
STGTU. By the way, how many 749R's are in the club racing in 2010? Do what they are doing in Utah and add a middle weight twins class. I think air cooled ducati's up to 1000cc is ok in STGTU. Guy's that like to spend $20.000 on there bike's should not be dinged for that. What if somebody showed up to the MRA with a $20.000 SV? Don't show up to a gun fight with a knife!!! :lol: :lol:

[Tornado]

My bike this year with the 1000cc motor made 103hp on the Dyno and 78 ft of torque. The bike with fuel weighs 320 pounds. With the other motor it made 116hp and 83ft of torque.

[T Baggins]

I think we all need to hug this one out. :) I think the 749R should not be in STGTU. Do what they are doing in Utah and add a middle weight twins class.

THUNDERBIKE! We're talking about exactly that on the Board Forums... why not create another venue for people to race, have fun, and support the club. Creating parity is the hardest thing in the Twins classes, but we're trying.

[Tornado]

Tony, the MRA is doing a great job. I hope this gets worked out. Let's go racing with a smile.

[Bartman]

My bike this year with the 1000cc motor made 103hp on the Dyno and 78 ft of torque. The bike with fuel weighs 320 pounds. With the other motor it made 116hp and 83ft of torque.

Shane with 20k you might be able to get a SV somewhere in the 100hp range but not for long and no where near the 80 footy mark. You can get a SV under 300lbs but still will be no match for your bike with that kind of power.

[Tornado]

I'm just saying, there are some ultra fast SV's out there and some great riders on them. We have one of the best SV riders in our club. I been to Phoenix and watched SV guys finish in the box in the 600 classes. Just put the Ninja 250 boys and girls and the SV 's in there own race. I rode Rybo's ninja 250 at HPR and you get 10 or more guys out there battling and it will look like a moto 2 race, just a little bit slower. :lol: :lol: