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dragos13
September 10th, 2010, 01:02 PM
Current rule: 2.4.1.3


3. SuperTwins GTU
- Up to 750 cc two cylinder, four stroke, four valve, water cooled
- Up to 250cc two stroke, two cylinder, water cooled
- Unlimited displacement, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled
- Unlimited displacement single cylinder, four stroke


Proposed Revision:

3. SuperTwins GTU
- Up to 850 cc two cylinder, four stroke, four valve, water cooled
- Up to 250cc two stroke, two cylinder, water cooled
- Unlimited displacement, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled
- Unlimited displacement single cylinder, four stroke


As SuperTwins is a modern bike class, not a vintage class I make the proposal with the following in mind.

1) There is only one bike in current production that is eligible for this class, the Kawasaki EX650.

2) The Ducati 848 is eligible in EVERY other middleweight class

3) GTU denotes this class as a middleweight, not a lightweight class.

The Ducati 749 is no longer produced (750cc twin)
The SV650 is no longer produced (650cc twin)

These were the dominant bikes in this class in years past.

dragos13
September 10th, 2010, 01:02 PM
Scotty just because there are no 2010 sv650s does not mean it is not current, there were no 2010 Suzuki but there will still be a SV when production resumes and lets not forget the EX650 not to mention all the chinese knockoffs of the SVs that could run in STGTU.
Bumping the twins to 850 just for the Duck makes no sense for me, if Suke and Kawaki make a larger cc twin OK but we are talking about making what would in essence be a 848 class which would be OK to do a 848 spec class if you want.

dragos13
September 10th, 2010, 01:11 PM
I am with ^ Bart ^

Opening it up to the Duck 848 would render pretty much everything else in the class obsolete... 369 lbs, 134 hp and 70lb-ft torque???

That thing will lay waste to 600's, and those decimate all comers on the sv... (unless Shannon is around)

Hotrod
September 10th, 2010, 01:13 PM
Ha! You moved it while I was replying... Whoops. Thanks Casey! :D

dragos13
September 10th, 2010, 01:20 PM
Ha! You moved it while I was replying... Whoops. Thanks Casey! :D

Now just if I was that fast on a bike...

:D

Munch
September 10th, 2010, 01:54 PM
As I am watching this one with interest... when do changes get approved or denied for 2011 race season?

Scored51
September 10th, 2010, 02:01 PM
[quote=rybo]
The Ducati 749 is no longer produced (750cc twin)
The SV650 is no longer produced (650cc twin)

These were the dominant bikes in this class in years past.

The SV650 is still the reason there is a Twins GTU class, and they still dominate. Why throw a fox in the hen house?

dragos13
September 10th, 2010, 02:12 PM
As I am watching this one with interest... when do changes get approved or denied for 2011 race season?

Around the end of November.

Bartman
September 10th, 2010, 03:18 PM
Yet once again I have shown my lack of computer skills by not knowing how to move a tread.
Might be time for this old dog to get some training. :lol:

rybo
September 10th, 2010, 03:24 PM
Yet once again I have shown my lack of computer skills by not knowing how to move a tread.
Might be time for this old dog to get some training. :lol:

Bart,

you probably move more tread than anyone else here, except maybe Mark E Mark....

Bartman
September 10th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Ok so I can't spell either, I think I will just crack another beer that will help. :D

racedk6
September 10th, 2010, 05:35 PM
Bart get back to work and quit drinkin on the clock!

oldtimer
September 10th, 2010, 06:39 PM
As I am watching this one with interest... when do changes get approved or denied for 2011 race season?

Around the end of November.


Casey are we shooting for October 17th for the rules change meeting? I don't know when that gets firmed up. @Munch that's open to everyone to attend and give input.

Jim 'smooth' Brewer
September 12th, 2010, 09:59 PM
Casey are we shooting for October 17th for the rules change meeting? I don't know when that gets firmed up.

Although I appreciate the enthusiasm, I think that's a little too soon. If you're going to follow the usual process (http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=9464 for example) then I'd actually say mid-November would be a better time. Last year notwithstanding, I found that giving more time for proposals and discussion after the season was over tended to get more people involved and more ideas brought forward.

dragos13
September 13th, 2010, 06:18 AM
I'll be talking to Johnny B tonight to figure out a date. It should be sometime around the end of October. This will give enough time to present the suggestions to the Board at the November meeting. Then, everything should be finalized and a summary will be posted around mid to end of November.

Desmodromico
September 13th, 2010, 11:18 AM
Just a note on this from a guy with no dog in the fight, the sv650 has been replaced by the Gladius, which appears to use enough different parts that it would not be easy to race prep with sv stuff. That said the class killer now is a 749r which is damn close to an 848 in power and weight and far better set up chassis wise. Since Ducati is pretty much the only company making a middleweight twin now it seems only a matter of time for us to let it in.

dave.gallant
September 13th, 2010, 11:31 AM
I love how we have the same argument for literally 10 years.

Viva la 749R!!

:roll:

rybo
September 13th, 2010, 01:07 PM
I love how we have the same argument for literally 10 years.

Viva la 749R!!

:roll:

come on Dave, it wouldn't be an official rule change meeting without this debate.

Bartman
September 13th, 2010, 01:15 PM
There is one very big difference now Dave, you can make a SV into a 750 but as far as I know you can't get them up to 850 and lets face it in no way could you call a 848 middleweight. If we do this we will need to do what we have talked about for 10 years is make a light middle and heavy twins class, main problem I see is number of bikes just is not there to justify it.
Hell in light of Glenns suggestion in the need to maybe trim a few classes lets get rid of these pesky twins and we will all go 250 ninja racing oh wait those are twins to. CRAP :lol:

dave.gallant
September 13th, 2010, 01:18 PM
I love arguing with Ben, but honestly I think we all have hashed this issue to death over the years. Maybe it is time to simply combine everything under GTO and then spec class the little bikes for the less money intensive fun?

Scored51
September 13th, 2010, 02:10 PM
come on Dave, it wouldn't be an official rule change meeting without this debate.

Especially since rain tires got voted into super sport classes last year.

dave.gallant
September 13th, 2010, 02:12 PM
Just wait until the full WSB traction control units show up on the Supersport grid next season.

Maybe there will be racing worth watching again in the Ninja cup class.

Hotrod
September 13th, 2010, 03:07 PM
I love arguing with Ben, but honestly I think we all have hashed this issue to death over the years. Maybe it is time to simply combine everything under GTO and then spec class the little bikes for the less money intensive fun?

I will pitch a wall-eyed hissy-fit with a full blown case of the screamin' heebie-jeebies thrown in for good measure if we do away with the sv classes. :evil:

And trust you me, that won't be a pretty sight!

dave.gallant
September 13th, 2010, 03:13 PM
I love arguing with Ben, but honestly I think we all have hashed this issue to death over the years. Maybe it is time to simply combine everything under GTO and then spec class the little bikes for the less money intensive fun?

I will pitch a wall-eyed hissy-fit with a full blown case of the screamin' heebie-jeebies thrown in for good measure if we do away with the sv classes. :evil:

And trust you me, that won't be a pretty sight!

Allowing the 749R did just that. You can race the SV in almost anything and call it an "SV Class". It will be just as competitive against a 110HP R6 as a 125HP Ducati whatever-it-is (air cooled 1000cc or 4 valve 749 new gen desmo).

But, I am not here to argue that point really. I rather argue with Sexy Ben about it anyways cause he is cute when he is mad.

(Did I mention I absolutely love Ducati's of almost every generation? I love SVs too....I am an equal opportunity hater on this topic. :) )

T Baggins
September 13th, 2010, 03:25 PM
this is why we made LWGP basically an SV / EX class. get rid of the exotics (TZ, 749, etc...) and make it about racing again...

Anybody ever wonder...

If Ducati made a bike with "normal displacement" like everyone else - would it still be the class of the field?

Surely I'm not the only one to catch on to their "build a cheater bike (via displacement advantage) and put pressure on the racing organizations to allow it into classes we know it will dominate" technique employed by the bolognianians.

crafty little bastards they are... :lol:

dave.gallant
September 13th, 2010, 03:31 PM
this is why we made LWGP basically an SV / EX class. get rid of the exotics (TX, 749, etc...) and make it about racing again...

Anybody ever wonder...

If Ducati made a bike with "normal displacement" like everyone else - would it still be the class of the field?

Surely I'm not the only one to catch on to their "build a cheater bike (via displacement advantage) and put pressure on the racing organizations to allow it into classes we know it will dominate" technique employed by the bolognianians.

crafty little bastards they are... :lol:

Damn Eye-talians!

I am too lazy to go look; how are the entries for LWGP this year? Are they up or down?

Applehans and I and a few other nut-jobs could simply be oddballs in the want for a more level lightweight twin class. If no one show up with them then there is no place for me to complain simply because there is no support for it.

If that is the case, I say "whack it" and lump all of the twins together into one big mess and give a 250/650 spec class a shot.

Speaking of which -- Marty -- I know you are reading this. Go out into your garage and put together my damn 250!

Scored51
September 13th, 2010, 04:50 PM
Anybody ever wonder...

If Ducati made a bike with "normal displacement" like everyone else - would it still be the class of the field?

Surely I'm not the only one to catch on to their "build a cheater bike (via displacement advantage) and put pressure on the racing organizations to allow it into classes we know it will dominate" technique employed by the bolognianians.

crafty little bastards they are... :lol:

Probably not. Ducati's bedfellows, Ferrari, have a loooong history of doing things like this. At one point, Enzo convinced the governing body of the world sportscar series that he would make enough 250 GTO's to meet homoligation rules if they would let it race. History tells us they were all just too darn busy winning races to get around to building the production cars.

dave.gallant
September 13th, 2010, 04:53 PM
Oh my!

http://www.khulsey.com/stockphotography/ferrari_250_gto_1962.jpeg

Hotrod
September 13th, 2010, 05:25 PM
Dave "I hate all little twins" Gallant said:"If that is the case, I say "whack it" and lump all of the twins together into one big mess and give a 250/650 spec class a shot. "


Damnit, there you go again! STOP THAT! :D

oldtimer
September 15th, 2010, 11:43 AM
LWGP has been decent, 8-12 bikes per weekend, about the same number as TwinsU. I like the 250 class as a separate wave behind LWGP idea I've heard floated around.

TRK
September 15th, 2010, 02:49 PM
848.................same bike that just won an AMA national event with a privateer on board?

Jon
September 15th, 2010, 02:53 PM
The 848 should reside in the middleweight classes IMO,Like it really matters though as I'm not a MRA racer

dave.gallant
September 15th, 2010, 03:19 PM
848.................same bike that just won an AMA national event with a privateer on board?

Probably makes the same HP as the 749R.

I'd say let it run LW Endurance as well!!

Bartman
September 15th, 2010, 03:51 PM
The 848 should reside in the middleweight classes IMO,Like it really matters though as I'm not a MRA racer

You could be a MRA racer again all you gots to do is show up with your bike and a white russian and it will be just like old times. Come play you slacker.

Munch
September 15th, 2010, 05:44 PM
For some perspective:

My 2006 749R made 113.33 HP / 57.69 lb-ft of torque, on Bart's dyno on pump fuel. Stock trim was about 404 pounds, I've probably shaved 20 pounds off mine. I'm sure there's alot more that could be done with the motor on race fuel, a nemesis and engine blueprinting...

The 2010 848's numbers are 134 HP / 70.8 lb-ft of torque, dry weight of 370 pounds.
The 2011 EVO 848 is 140 HP / 72.3 lb-ft of torque

As I'd like to see the 848 allowed, it would kill any chance of an SV beating it (considering riders being equal). I think this has been the biggest objection to letting the 848 join the current class as it's defined. I'm the only 749 in the class this year it seems. The rest are SV's and TZ's.

I know the big bore on the 749R's are close to 140HP. Skip might be able to chime in on his numbers.

It's the same arm's race issues we have with any other class.

If we let it in, lemmie know ASAP, as I want one! I'll have BMS build it over the winter!! :twisted:

Jon
September 15th, 2010, 06:17 PM
I'm choosing my method of staying out of this debate by simple looking at the rules of other more prominent clubs n regards to this. Do they allow 848/749s in their lightweight classes?
Maybe the board will stick behind you, maybe they won't but regardless you'll be considered cheating. I've raced across the country on SV 650's and won, EX650's and won, and Ducati's and won even though I've been protested I've won that too....Always good for some pocket change.
Regardless, if you read the rules and follow them to the tee, I have found people who just can't stand when they think you've got an unfair advantage and use it. I would say that you guys need to really think about this before you further alienate even more racers from your membership.

dave.gallant
September 15th, 2010, 06:21 PM
:roll:

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn193/Muktukjoe/not_this_shit_again.jpg

Jon
September 15th, 2010, 06:38 PM
Dave,
Where in the same hell do you come up with these things?

dave.gallant
September 15th, 2010, 06:56 PM
Dave,
Where in the same hell do you come up with these things?

You can find ANYTHING on the interwebs! :D

Munch
September 15th, 2010, 07:57 PM
I think we are trying to take into consideration the number and types of bikes we have in the class, and what makes the most sense for the club. If we open up the class to 848's, I'm guessing most of our current SV650 riders are not going to run out and get one. However, I'm sure someone will certainly jump on the opportunity to run an 848 and dominate the class. Who has a decent sized wallet usually has an advantage. I also recognize that those riders with more skill also have an advantage. That's racing. In time others will follow, and eventually you will not find a SV650 running in STGTU. But obviously the classes need to adjust to keep up with what's goings on technically.

If we let 848's in, I'd run one or drop a big bore in mine - whichever made more cost effective sense.

Or heck Jon, I can buy your cheater bike this winter if you wanna sell it!! ;)

froth
September 15th, 2010, 08:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdOVONtnsj0

:roll:

Jon
September 15th, 2010, 08:37 PM
Excellent song with an excellent cast of musicians. Thanks there Fred

froth
September 16th, 2010, 06:45 AM
No worries. Now get out there and take some friggin trophies home!

hcr25
September 16th, 2010, 07:15 AM
I think it is funny that a any racer thinks that this is a fair idea. The 848 is a middle weight bike. It is raced with 600's all over the country and in world supersport. Just like the 749r was.

Why are we trying to cater to the few? A number of years ago Dave and I raced sv's in ST GTU with Moham and a few others. It was a very competitive class. Then came along a 749r. 120 plus horse power in a bike that was made to race, against a sport touring bike. Seems fair right?
Very few supported the idea of banning the 749r from the class. Why you ask, because in my opinion we cater to the few. The next year of this class it was less competitive because several of us sold our sv's. It would

Ask yourself this, If Turpin was on a sv 650 do you think he could win ROR U?

Now what if he was on a 848 or a 749r?

dave.gallant
September 16th, 2010, 07:34 AM
If Turpin could win on an SV, Clarkie could win on a bigwheel!

http://www.coolest-toys.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/bigwheel.jpg

:shock:

:D



(bout damn time you showed up to the conversation Mikey)

dave.gallant
September 16th, 2010, 07:37 AM
Oh, and for the record, Shane is one of the best 748/DUcati riders I have ever seen.

He literally rode the wheels of Ben Fox's 748 at PPIR with the AMA one year on his way to I think 4th or 5th in Pro Thunder. Ben will chime in, but it was an amazing ride.

Desmodromico
September 16th, 2010, 10:38 AM
If we are trying to make this an SV class then keep it out by all means and ban the 749R as well (sorry Munch), however I thought that was what LWGP was for?

The reason I brought this up last year is there is no way in hell 90% of the club members could be competitive in NovU, AmU, or MWSB on an SV650, many could be on an 848 or 749R and thus make it a more attractive ride for those who want to race a twin and bring in more entries, plus the 749/748 could run a big bore and get a new lease on life as well. The real issue is not the twins it is having a bike that you can run in many classes and be competitive, and the 600's are so damn fast an SV is like a squirt gun in those classes. Shannon rides the wheels off his highly tricked out SV, but he wouldn't have won the last NovU race, so what does that say about where we stand with the bike?

Frankly the 848 would be significantly cheaper to run than a 749R, and those things are scarce anyhow. 848's are popping up like weeds for sale everywhere and I see them on the street all the time.

hcr25
September 16th, 2010, 11:26 AM
If we are trying to make this an SV class then keep it out by all means and ban the 749R as well (sorry Munch), however I thought that was what LWGP was for?

The reason I brought this up last year is there is no way in hell 90% of the club members could be competitive in NovU, AmU, or MWSB on an SV650, many could be on an 848 or 749R and thus make it a more attractive ride for those who want to race a twin and bring in more entries, plus the 749/748 could run a big bore and get a new lease on life as well. The real issue is not the twins it is having a bike that you can run in many classes and be competitive, and the 600's are so damn fast an SV is like a squirt gun in those classes. Shannon rides the wheels off his highly tricked out SV, but he wouldn't have won the last NovU race, so what does that say about where we stand with the bike?



You are missing some history here. Twins U was more of an sv class then anything else before the 749r came on the seen. At the time Suzuki paid in STGTU. Suzuki then moved the contingency money to LWGP because the 749r was a middle weight bike and had a unfair advantage.

If the 848 is allowed in STGTU it will make the sv have two classes to be competitive in. LWGP and LW endurance.

The 848 would be competitive in novice gtu and gto. and both amateur classes. It would also be competitive in both mw ss and sb both hw ss and sb classes, both mw and hw endurance and ROR U.
So because one or two guys have or want an 848 we need to allow them to race in STGTU so they have another class they can compete in?
Frankly the 848 would be significantly cheaper to run than a 749R, and those things are scarce anyhow. 848's are popping up like weeds for sale everywhere and I see them on the street all the time.

oldtimer
September 16th, 2010, 11:44 AM
Speaking as a former 848 owner :D I think it would be a fun and competitive bike in the middleweight classes--which it's already eligible for in the MRA. Any novice or expert can already buy one and go win NovU, NovO, AmU, AmO, MWSB, HWSB, RoRU, endurance, etc etc.

But if we also push that bike down into the little bike classes it may run off racers we already have, who already own competitive bikes for these classes. The 848 has tons of classes it's eligible for and competitive in, and the little bikes don't. Doesn't make sense to me to give that bike even more classes, when our little bike racers have so few now.

Having said that, I think you guys SHOULD go buy 848's and storm the am classes next year if you'll both be experts. They'd do great!

oldtimer
September 16th, 2010, 11:45 AM
Oops I guess Mikey already said that. 8)

Bartman
September 16th, 2010, 12:55 PM
I have said it before and I will say it again, let just outlaw all twins and those pesky two smokers and while we are at it no triples either and we will go get 600s and 1000s and we will all be one big happy family. :lol:
Eff diversity.

Hotrod
September 16th, 2010, 02:04 PM
If we are trying to make this an SV class then keep it out by all means and ban the 749R as well (sorry Munch), however I thought that was what LWGP was for?

The reason I brought this up last year is there is no way in hell 90% of the club members could be competitive in NovU, AmU, or MWSB on an SV650, many could be on an 848 or 749R and thus make it a more attractive ride for those who want to race a twin and bring in more entries, plus the 749/748 could run a big bore and get a new lease on life as well. The real issue is not the twins it is having a bike that you can run in many classes and be competitive, and the 600's are so damn fast an SV is like a squirt gun in those classes. Shannon rides the wheels off his highly tricked out SV, but he wouldn't have won the last NovU race, so what does that say about where we stand with the bike?

Frankly the 848 would be significantly cheaper to run than a 749R, and those things are scarce anyhow. 848's are popping up like weeds for sale everywhere and I see them on the street all the time.


OH EMM GEEE! (Quoting Eric Cromer there)


I just smashed my soap-box in frustration, so I guess I have nothing to say other than proposing that the 2011 and up GSXR-1000 be henceforth allowed in colorado class. We can change the name of the class to ROR2 and kick some serious single cylinder azz!!!


Um, ever take the spirit of the class into consideration? :evil:

Desmodromico
September 16th, 2010, 04:00 PM
You guys are too funny, spirit of the class? That is already F'ed up by your OWN definition so why not fix the rules?

The grid is damn near the same people in LWGP and STGTU why not just make an SV spec class instead of LWGP if that is what everyone wants? Or most of the SV guys are older so why not make the Formula 40 LW and HW with LW having SV as the top displacement?

Nothing gets accomplished without solutions, if you want to keep making me the bad guy go ahead, I don't even have an F'ing 848!

dave.gallant
September 16th, 2010, 04:04 PM
I don't think many of us really care anymore and showed our opinion by selling our SVs.

Let 848s run in TwinsU. Hell, let the 1098 in MWSS & HWSS while we are it!

It simply means a few less whiny lightweight twins riders on the grid. :D

dave.gallant
September 16th, 2010, 04:07 PM
just outlaw all twins and those pesky two smokers

This is all I want in life:

http://www.twostrokeshop.com/RS500_7.jpg

500cc of pure stupidity!!

Scored51
September 16th, 2010, 04:09 PM
OH EMM GEEE! (Quoting Eric Cromer there)

I just smashed my soap-box in frustration, so I guess I have nothing to say other than proposing that the 2011 and up GSXR-1000 be henceforth allowed in colorado class. We can change the name of the class to ROR2 and kick some serious single cylinder azz!!!

Um, ever take the spirit of the class into consideration? :evil:

=; =; =;DO NOT JEST MY 650 FEATHERED FRIEND!!! [-X [-X [-X
There is, and has always been, a way to run an ROR bike in LWGP. All it takes a little creativtiy, reasonable sized check book, and a couple of loose nuts building it to be sitting on the grid with twice the horsepower your SV has and probably less weight. At which point Mr. Turpin's records for the class would be a good warm up pace for the right rider. Am I about right, Sir David?

dave.gallant
September 16th, 2010, 04:10 PM
Throw enough $ at a problem and there is always a solution to be found.

(4 clinder 1000cc air cooled fuel injected turbocharged two stroke!)

Desmodromico
September 16th, 2010, 04:16 PM
My point exactly, SV numbers are small, so propose a solution instead of taking your ball and going home.

Sometimes the attitudes here are amazing, it is a discussion forum, so discuss don't just piss on everybody else's ideas...

WERA has a different setup that has a lot of SV classes, they also don't allow 1098's into some classes and run many of the races in waves instead of separately, is this the way that gets more people out on the grid?



7. The WERA Sportsman Series competition classes are as follows:
A SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE and A SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE
Unlimited OEM Displacement
B SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE and B SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to 750cc multis (Superbike up to 770cc)
Up to 1050cc 4 stroke triples(Superbike up to 1080cc)
Up to 1000cc 4-stroke twins
Unlimited singles
Vintage 5 & 6 machines
* 250cc GP machines are allowed in B Superbike. Ducati 1098 is allowed into B Superbike in Superstock trim.
C SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE and C SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to 650cc 4-stroke multis
Up to 675cc 4-stroke triples
Up to 1200cc 4-stroke air-cooled twins
Up to 850cc 4-stroke water-cooled twins
Up to 550cc 2-stroke multis
Unlimited singles
Vintage 5 machines
*Aprilia Tuono and SV1000 are allowed in C Superstock and Superbike in Superstock trim only for both classes slicks are allowed in Superbike.
D SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE and D SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to 490cc water-cooled multis
Up to 700cc 4-stroke water-cooled twins with 3 valves or less per cylinder
Up to 600cc air-cooled multis & water cooled twins with more than 3 valves
Up to 883cc 4-stroke air-cooled twins
Up to 775cc singles based on Formula Rules in DSB, SB rules in DSS
Up to 450cc 2-stroke water-cooled twins
Up to 500cc 2-stroke air-cooled twins
*The TZR250 is allowed in D Superbike only and must conform to Superstock rules with the exception that slicks are allowed and no limits on bodywork. The VF500 is allowed in D Superbike only with stock displacement.
*There will be no bodywork or tire limitations in D Superstock. D Superstock bikes do not need to have DOT approval. All bikes may run slicks. FZR400’s may run 17” wheels.
E SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE
200-250cc 4-stroke water-cooled twins
200-250cc 4-stroke air cooled twins
*No bodywork restrictions.
*No engine modifications allowed
*All bikes may upgrade to 17” wheels so long as they do not weigh less than the stock wheels for that model.
*Kickstand mounts may be cut off of frame.
LIGHTWEIGHT TWINS SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE and LIGHTWEIGHT TWINS SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to 800cc air-cooled twins
Up to 750cc water-cooled twins with 3 valves
Up to 700cc water-cooled twins with more than 3 valves
Unlimited singles based on Formula rules (Superbike only)
-No 125cc GP machines,
*Buell Firebolt and Lightning, Ducati 900SS and any model using the 1000DS engine, are allowed under Superstock rules (with slicks) in LWTSB only.
*There are no bodywork limits in LWT.
HEAVYWEIGHT TWINS SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE and HEAVYWEIGHT TWINS SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE
Unlimited displacement air-cooled, four stroke twins, (based on Formula rules in HWTSB)
Unlimited displacement water-cooled, four stroke twins, (under 900cc based on Formula rules in HWTSB)
Up to 700cc water cooled, four stroke triples
Any machine legal for Lightweight Twins
125cc & 250cc GP Machines in Superbike Only
*Up to 1050cc Triples based on Superstock rules will be allowed in HWT Superbike only.
*There are no bodywork limits in HWT.
FORMULA 1 EXPERT & NOVICE
Unlimited displacement machinery
FORMULA 2 EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to 396cc 2-stroke water-cooled twins
Up to 500cc 2-stroke air-cooled twins and multis
Up to700cc 4-stroke twins
Up to 600cc 4-stroke air-cooled multis
Up to 565cc 4-stroke water-cooled multis
Unlimited singles
All D Superbike and LWT (SS and SB) Machines (must retain orignal class legality)
125 GRAND PRIX (no Expert/Novice differentiation)
Up to 125cc 2-stroke Grand Prix machines
Up to 250cc 4-stroke engines in GP chassis
CLUBMAN EXPERT & NOVICE (all below based on Formula rules except as noted)
Unlimited displacement 2 & 4-stroke singles
Up to 605cc 4-stroke water-cooled twins
Up to 650cc 4-stroke air-cooled twins
Up to 250cc 4-stroke water-cooled multis
Up to 600cc 4-stroke air-cooled 2 valve per cylinder multis
Up to 570cc 4-stroke air-cooled 4 valve per cylinder multis
Up to 450cc 2-stroke air-cooled multis
Up to 396cc 2-stroke water-cooled multis
All Vintage 3 & 4 machines
*Honda Hawks and Air cooled Ducati 750’s, 250cc 2-stroke GP replica machines (TZR, NSR, RGV, etc..), Aprilia Cup, and Triumph Thruxton, are allowed but limited to Superstock mods with the exception that slicks are allowed., no Ducati Supermono. 125cc & 250cc GP machines are not allowed.
HEAVYWEIGHT SENIOR SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to B Superbike and A Superstock machinery.
All riders must be 40 years old or greater
MEDIUMWEIGHT SENIOR SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to C Superbike machinery.
All riders must be 40 years old or greater
WOMENS SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to B Superbike and A Superstock machinery.
All riders must be female
SOLO CLASSES:
Heavyweight Expert & Novice - A & B Superstock, A & B Superbike, and Formula 1 machines
Mediumweight Expert & Novice - C Superstock, C Superbike, and Formula 2 machines
Lightweight Expert & Novice - 125 Grand Prix, Clubman, Lightweight Twins and D class machines.

dave.gallant
September 16th, 2010, 04:20 PM
My point exactly, SV numbers are small, so propose a solution instead of taking your ball and going home..

You are new around these parts, eh? :)

Here is a hint: We proposed various things over the years and had a great deal of fun sitting in a room each and every October arguing about this very thing. This is not a new conversation whatsoever.

So, I applaud your enthusiasm and good luck storming the castle!

hcr25
September 16th, 2010, 04:37 PM
I have said it before and I will say it again, let just outlaw all twins and those pesky two smokers and while we are at it no triples either and we will go get 600s and 1000s and we will all be one big happy family. :lol:
Eff diversity.


I actually like this idea. We have too many classes now and are proposing two more. Maybe we should allow the sv to race in the ninja 250 class. That way there would be another class for the sv to be competitive in. This would also show what it is like when a sv races against a 749r or 848.

Hotrod
September 16th, 2010, 04:41 PM
(4 clinder 1000cc air cooled fuel injected turbocharged two stroke!)

Good for precisely said warm-up lap. Then.... BLAMMO!
:D


But seriously, folks...
Why are people who have no dog in this fight so bent to change a group of classes that they don't even ride in? If you are so determined to ride an 848, go do it. There are multiple classes that it is arguably much more than just competitive in...
As the whole Glaefke thing demonstrates, and as mentioned above... the class rules are plenty loose as is to get any number of beautiful exotic machines to the grid. The spirit comment is directed at that... how much looser do you want it to be? It already is a GP class that is limited purely by displacement.( LWGP is anyway. STGTU isn't far from it.) Don't like it? Race in a bigger displacement class.

My SV would never be able to come to the grid in a spec class. There are so many things modified that it would at the very least be cost prohibitive to return to spec, if not flat out impossible.

The discussion was never "Lets make sure there is nothing in this class that can beat an sv."
It was "why the hell should we change the displacement limits?"
Just to let the 848 race? As stated by multiple people who have first hand experience with them, it is more than capable enough to race with the 600's. Personally I think the performance is more in line with a well set up 750... which are also a dying breed. Why not make HW an 848 class? All you have to do is show up to the grid? No rule changes required.
You want to talk grid attendance? How many people actually rolled a real live 750 I4 up to the starting grid this year?


I guess I just don't understand the desire to shoehorn this bike into LWGP, LWE and STGTU? Why? There are obviously other classes for it that have more parity. Makes me think that there must be some other reason... How much of an advantage do you need to have to be willing to race it? :roll:

gsnyder828
September 16th, 2010, 06:09 PM
You want to talk grid attendance? How many people actually rolled a real live 750 I4 up to the starting grid this year?



Me... and maybe Crash a few times? Other than that - not many if any.

But then again - I think I may also be the only guy with a supersport prepped SV... #-o

Eff it - I'm unloading them both and buying a 600 for next year. :twisted: I'm obviously going about bike choice all wrong. :lol:

froth
September 16th, 2010, 07:34 PM
I'll just run a few more ponies down. Not like I'm in the tippy top anyhow.

Scored51
September 16th, 2010, 10:06 PM
But seriously, folks... Why are people who have no dog in this fight so bent to change a group of classes that they don't even ride in?

Lincoln? Breathe... just breathe... no, just breathe.

If you look at the original posting on this thread, it is Scott, not Casey, who has made the suggested change. The same Scott that rides a Mod Vin legal Duc 748. I'm sure he has reasons for suggesting such a change, but the fact of the matter is he would be able to run his seriously overbored Ducati in LWGP. That's all.

Jim 'smooth' Brewer
September 26th, 2010, 11:24 AM
We proposed various things over the years and had a great deal of fun sitting in a room each and every October arguing about this very thing. This is not a new conversation whatsoever.
I've saved the meeting notes since 2001. Should I post them?
<digression>Tony really ruined the fun @ one meeting back in, what, 2005? Oooshh.. </digression>


So, I applaud your enthusiasm and good luck storming the castle!
Or, perhaps, tilting at the windmills?