Top 10 Plates via Clubman points Discussion

[oldtimer]

This is Chris's suggestion from the main 2011 Rule Change Thread http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=11486

His post copied below:

Change:

7.2 A. Race Of the Rockies GTO (ROR GTO) points will accrue toward top ten number plates, for the following season. Accrued points in Race Of the Rockies GTO are the only way a top ten number plate may be earned.

Suggestion:

7.2 A. Points will accrue in all sprint and endurance classes towards a Clubman Championship for every rider. The Top ten number plates (1-10) for the following season will be awarded to the ten highest scoring riders in order of rank regardless of novice or expert. The Clubman Championship is the only way a top ten number plate may be earned. Competitors in the Sportsman class are excluded due to a non-championship status.


Economic Benefit:

- I believe this plan encourages riders to sign up for more classes as everyone has a shot at the number one plate. If this plan were in place last year, a novice would be in the top ten right now. The number of active members in this club continues to decline. Futhermore, race registrations are generating less revenue for the club per rider now than when we were screaming bankrupcy! Last year our Board of Director's estimated we were generating $200 per rider; now it is as low as $178. That's between $17,600 - $22,800 less this year than last based on 100-130 riders in only 8 races.


Harder Working Riders:

- Historically only 50% of the riders earning top ten plates would utilize the privelige of running them. Therefore, it is a wasted honor to restrict these numbers to the top ten in Race of Rockies GTO. Currently the grids are still small enough in this class that only the top ten riders in the series have actually scored points at all five rounds to date. Without completing a single lap in the 2010 season, a rider at this point would be sitting in 12th place in the ROR-O championship and would have collected a payout check at every round. So do we want to award a top ten plate to a rider that has done little more than show up on the right grid each weekend, or do we want to show the honor and reward those who are generating more revenue for the club throughout an entire season by working hard at entering as many races as they possible can?

The Big Downfall:

- The only downfall I see in this plan is that Otis will actually have to pick an permanent expert number unless he starts showing up with more bikes.


Even knowing I'd be in the running for a top 10 plate this year based on accrued Clubman points, I've always thought this was a lame way to award top 10 plates. I prefer my top 10 plates to go to the fastest consistent finishers in the fastest meanest class. If it makes you feel better Chris, I PROMISE I'll run my plate if/when I ever earn one. :)

[hcr25]

A top 10 plate is something to be proud of for sure. Its to bad more of the guys who earn them dont run them. My guess is maybe 2 or 3 guys a year run them.

In my opinion the top ten plate should be for ROR O riders. That being said the clubman championship could have a top ten plate with a different color background for being the overall points leaders.
Mike

[rybo]

Mike,

The different colored background thing doesn't work. The database for scoring is set up so that each rider in an individual season has a unique competition (and club membership) number between 1 and 999. Changing this would require a massive rewrite of our existing scoring system. While I think it would be cool, only one rider can have the #1 and only one rider can have the #25.

Another option would be to reserve the numbers 11-20 for the top ten clubman riders.....but that presents problems as well, such as #11 is retired and there are going to be riders who earn both a top 10 and a top clubman #, eliminating yet another 2 digit number that someone may otherwise occupy.


As a general rule I think awarding the top ten plates to the winners of our premier class has been the right way to go. The best riders on the fastest bikes period. I think participation in our premier classes has been a bit low and I don't know how we go about increasing it. Increasing payout is one suggestion, but that comes at the price of viability for the rest of the club.

I think this is a great and very debatable rule change suggestion. I don't know which way I'd vote on it today.

s

[oldtimer]

Related to acknowledging our top racers, I'd like to note the following section in the rulebook.

Sec.5.3.C.Number Display Regulations
...Expert class champions from the previous MRA season are permitted to use white numbers on a black background with the same size and style restrictions.

No one elects to use this option but it's a cool idea. I suppose if you went to race with another club you'd have to convert to the white plate/black number and that might be a pain... But it would be impressive to see the class champions out on the track with special plates identifying them next year.

[hcr25]

Scott, I understand. Im just looking at it from another point of view. It seems most of the ROR O riders dont care to run the number they earn. If a top 10 plate for the points championship gets more riders to race more classes wouldn't that benefit the club more? More riders racing more classes brings in more money. This is what the club needs. Maybe then we could add some prize money to the ROR payout.

[Scored51]

I want the #1 plate to go to the girl who's consistently the fastest. :D

I agree with you completely! :D However, the riders in ROR-O are not the fastest riders. None of the absoute track records currently held in this club were set in an ROR race. (note: I will need a little help from JenJen to verify ST's record at PMP in '04 - but all others were set in either Open SuperSport or SuperBike.)



As a general rule I think awarding the top ten plates to the winners of our premier class has been the right way to go. The best riders on the fastest bikes period.


- With the above statement, are they the fastest?
- What makes the GTO riders "more premier" than the GTU competitors since we don't give them special plates?
- What if a Clubman Championship can raise the entry fees per rider?

When Charlie Johnson gave that great presentation to the MRA about running a CB160 class, he said that it didn't matter who the riders were in their club where it originated (fast, slow, big bike, little bike). They ran the class in order to score more points towards a clubman type of championship. That sounds like more race registration revenue. It is also another opportunity to sell sponsorship of the program and generate greater contingency for the club. Maybe all of this can be accomplished for the coming year by our killer team of PR and selling volunteers. If voted into the rulebook, it could be another no-cost idea like Super Street that ended up raising more money for the club.

I'm not suggesting the club cuts into any of the prize money offered to ROR-O riders. However, it is evident with an average grid of only 15 this season and only 4 riders using a top ten plate in the class; the interest in assigning the numbers 1-10 in ROR-O mostly resides in those not lining up on the grid.

[Scored51]

Related to acknowledging our top racers, I'd like to note the following section in the rulebook.

Sec.5.3.C.Number Display Regulations
...Expert class champions from the previous MRA season are permitted to use white numbers on a black background with the same size and style restrictions.

No one elects to use this option but it's a cool idea. I suppose if you went to race with another club you'd have to convert to the white plate/black number and that might be a pain... But it would be impressive to see the class champions out on the track with special plates identifying them next year.

When it was first voted into existence, quite a number of people took advantage of the new rule and displayed white on black. It became muddied when the class champs would run in another class. So now there were two white numbers on black plates in one race. In theory there would be as many as 22 black plates running around in as many as half a dozen classes each. Five classes of which, they weren't the champ.

See? Clear as mud!

[rybo]

I still think the white on black is super cool. While it may not denote THE class champion for whatever race is being run, it does denote A class champion.


As far as fastest riders on fastest bikes.....I'm guessing, and this is just a guess here, that the riders and bikes that hold the class records in open superbike are the same riders on the same bikes as the ones raced in ROR.

Of course lap record times aren't set in ROR, it's twice the distance and later in the day. If ROR were the same distance I'm guessing (and again, this is just a guess) that there would be lap records set in that class.

[oldtimer]

- What if a Clubman Championship can raise the entry fees per rider?


That's the one part I like. I'll have to think about it more, overall I'd say I'm still a purist and would want the top 10 plates awarded in the premier class...but motivating more entries is tempting.

Incidentally, that was the whole point of our current Clubman Championship. We just got going with the standings late due to everything else we've been trying this season. :oops:

[cu260r6]

The clubs that have this type of cumulative points rule for determining their champion have seen a dramatic increase in costs for the racers. In order to win the club championship a racer is all but required to have multiple bikes which dramatically increases costs just when the MRA is struggling with turnout.

[rybo]

The clubs that have this type of cumulative points rule for determining their champion have seen a dramatic increase in costs for the racers. In order to win the club championship a racer is all but required to have multiple bikes which dramatically increases costs just when the MRA is struggling with turnout.

Charles,

If we go by our current clubman standings the statement doesn't play out.

positions
2
4
5
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

all all riders riding a single bike (some have backup bikes of the same configuration), so half of the top 10 would be riders that don't have multiple bikes, but are racing up on their existing bike.

Someone on a SV can pretty much race every class in the club. Exceptions would be Colorado Class and for practicality reasons the open classes. I would suspect a well ridden SV entered in a large number of classes would still have a tire budget at, or lower than, that of a competitive ROR O rider on a liter bike. Once a rider enters 4 classes per weekend the cost per class ends at $20 each, so I'm not really sure how this massively increases the cost of racing. The bulk of my costs are getting to and staying at the races, so those remain unchanged.

It will, however, increase the fitness level of our club members [/joke]

[gsnyder828]

I guess I should weigh in since I inadvertently kicked all this off with my not so serious hope of running the #3 plate next year...

I'm sort of a purist and think that the top 10 plate should go for the premier class. The problem I see with the MRA is that there isn't a premier class at the moment. Right now there are only 10 riders in RORO who've shown up for the 1st 5 races. So mere participation in one class could feasibly earn someone a top 10 plate... that isn't very elite. On top of that, arguably lots of the best riders are in RORU...

If we get rid of RORU and go to a combined ROR - I like the status quo.

That said, I like the idea of driving additional participation & revenue through awarding top 10 plates for "overall" points leaders.

I'd expect we'd see some solid riders start riding some of the softer classes as well - filling up those grids in an effort to make points. That might not be so good for me and my SV though... :oops:

I'll have to think about it... but if the rule is made retroactive, and I'm allowed to run a single digit next year - you've got my vote 8) . :mrgreen:

[hcr25]

How in the past has our mystical database worked when two racers used the number in the same race?

How is our race number linked to our transponder number?

[cu260r6]

Charles,

If we go by our current clubman standings the statement doesn't play out.

positions
2
4
5
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

all all riders riding a single bike (some have backup bikes of the same configuration), so half of the top 10 would be riders that don't have multiple bikes, but are racing up on their existing bike.

Someone on a SV can pretty much race every class in the club. Exceptions would be Colorado Class and for practicality reasons the open classes. I would suspect a well ridden SV entered in a large number of classes would still have a tire budget at, or lower than, that of a competitive ROR O rider on a liter bike. Once a rider enters 4 classes per weekend the cost per class ends at $20 each, so I'm not really sure how this massively increases the cost of racing. The bulk of my costs are getting to and staying at the races, so those remain unchanged.

It will, however, increase the fitness level of our club members [/joke]

Sure, you're correct now because no one has that incentive given the current points structure. However, if you change it a good racer could be crowned club champion simply by having several competitive bikes racing against great racers that only have one bike. I think I'm safe in assuming we want the fastest rider crowned champ, so I see the current rules as closer to this goal than the suggested modification.

[Scored51]

Sure, you're correct now because no one has that incentive given the current points structure. However, if you change it a good racer could be crowned club champion simply by having several competitive bikes racing against great racers that only have one bike. I think I'm safe in assuming we want the fastest rider crowned champ, so I see the current rules as closer to this goal than the suggested modification.

With only two bikes ('00 SV650 and '00 R6) you can run 13 of our 22 classes. Right now Shannon, 1st place, runs 8 or 9 per weekend. When Eric Cromer won the Novice and Amateur GTU/O championships last year, he would currently be in 3rd place right now running only 4 races on one bike.

[Scored51]

How in the past has our mystical database worked when two racers used the number in the same race?

How is our race number linked to our transponder number?

There are two different systems at work here. For the scoring software, you are correct and it doesn't make a difference as a rider is tied to a particular transponder. However, in the MRA database a rider's number is the unique ID. Therefore we can assign a rider to multiple number (i.e. Shane Turpin holding #1 and #14), but it cannot have duplicate numbers in its system (i.e Turpin #1 for ROR-O, and Ricky Orlando #1 for ROR-U).

Hope this helps.

[Scored51]

Cut and pasted without permission from the original thread:



Guys and Gal,
I hate to say I told you so but my early season prediction of who would run away with this stands and I again congratulate Shannon for the award. I've raced full seasons with many clubs across this country and little known fact is even the MRA (Mountain Roadracing Association). used to award top ten plates in this manner.
Not only does it reward the more fit riders, it actually benefits the club monetarily. CCS /SW awards the number one plate to the winner of Unlimited Gran Prix (RORO equivalent) and the number 2 through 9 plates go to the rider with the most accumulated points total. In 2009 a lightweight rider got the number 2 plate and the other plates were a mix of light, middle and open class bikes. For one, I personally like the idea as for one it awards the rider for being fit, prepared and finishing races opposed to spending the most outright$$ on the bike...

[hcr25]

How in the past has our mystical database worked when two racers used the number in the same race?

How is our race number linked to our transponder number?

There are two different systems at work here. For the scoring software, you are correct and it doesn't make a difference as a rider is tied to a particular transponder. However, in the MRA database a rider's number is the unique ID. Therefore we can assign a rider to multiple number (i.e. Shane Turpin holding #1 and #14), but it cannot have duplicate numbers in its system (i.e Turpin #1 for ROR-O, and Ricky Orlando #1 for ROR-U).

Hope this helps.

Thank you, that does help. How in the past have we been able to score two riders using the same number in the same race in our system?

[Scored51]

Thank you, that does help. How in the past have we been able to score two riders using the same number in the same race in our system?

The transponders don't care what bike your riding. A race in Hastings two years ago had three number 811's (thanks Fred for lending out all the bikes!) on the track, but we each had our own transponder. There is generally some communication over the race radios from pregrid to update start/finish and everyone else of what riders have switched bikes including duplicate numbers. In the raceday office the scoring can usually be sorted out by comparing the computer to the manual results with a fair dose of common sense.

[hcr25]

Thank you, that is what i was thinking. That being said, why would it not be possible to do this with two sets of top ten plates?

[rybo]

Mike,

A borrowed bike is one thing, a membership number and the entire scoring system is another.

In the borrowed bike instance the proper rider is scored by making sure that rider has their transponder on the bike as well as some last minute radio communications amongst the track control folks and the people doing the manual (backup) scoring. If (theoretically) there were 20 bikes doing this every weekend the workload for our track crew would be unreasonable.

For example, go look up your points for the year by number. If there were two #25's then it would be impossible to tell which points were yours and which were someone else's. It would get all the more confusing if you were in the same race with that person.

Finally, a safety reason would be that our ambulance crews emergency medical paperwork is filed by bike number. One of the reasons we started having riders put numbers on helmets is exactly for the borrowed bike scenario.

Is this "impossible"? no, but it would require a massive overhaul of our scoring and safety systems to accomplish.

[Scored51]

I think we should set it up so that each rider has a different number for every class they run! That way every class can have a top ten, spectators would all know the rankings in every race, and the ambulance crews would need a cargo trailer to carry all of the paperwork. :lol:

Always leave it to an A-hole to post something like this.

[hcr25]

What about having a zero in front of the number? Clubman points #1 plate holders number would be 01, second would be 02 ect.

On the bikes number plate a small two inch number zero to the left of the full size number earned.

[Scored51]

The MRA database can't handle the leading zero in a number. The field is numeric only. To see same type of thing, try entering a "01" into MS-Excel and see how it automatically corrects it. The timing software doesn't care because it is just a text field up to four characters. Yes, I can change your number to a four letter word. :D

[Jon]

Since I don't race with you guys club but did earn a number top five plate last year and Geoff really would like to have one. He can have mine for the remainder of the season. I figure regardless of the fact I'm a cheater it wasn't last year that I was accused of this so if I choose to give it away I should be able to right?
Now who wants my number 94?

[dave.gallant]

I figure regardless of the fact I'm a cheater it wasn't last year that I was accused of this so if I choose to give it away I should be able to right?

Sorry.

Cheaters have no say in who gets their MRA number.

[Jon]

Doesn't matter because the numbers already gone.

[dave.gallant]

Doesn't matter because the numbers already gone.

Retired?

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/more/06/26/intro.numbers/tx.gretzky.99.jpg

[Jon]

Me retire? Hell I've had one of the busiest seasons in years. I started off in Chandler AZ, in Jan, went to Daytona, back to AZ a couple times did the MOM (my new home) dropped in with the MRA and been going back to Utah ever since. If all goes as planned I'll just continue flying in to Salt lake and finish out the season there. My kids have a playground, ride there bikes all over and I get to concentrate on racing opposed to having them asking "whatta I do now" all day long.
I may one day return but it'll probably once my kids are grown up.

[Bartman]

Hell Jonny you have not grown up yet so I don't think we can wait for your kids to before you come back. :D

[dave.gallant]

Me retire? Hell I've had one of the busiest seasons in years. I started off in Chandler AZ, in Jan, went to Daytona, back to AZ a couple times did the MOM (my new home) dropped in with the MRA and been going back to Utah ever since. If all goes as planned I'll just continue flying in to Salt lake and finish out the season there. My kids have a playground, ride there bikes all over and I get to concentrate on racing opposed to having them asking "whatta I do now" all day long.
I may one day return but it'll probably once my kids are grown up.

I was referring to your cheater number.

Was it retired like The Great One?

[racedk6]

The MRA database can't handle the leading zero in a number. The field is numeric only. To see same type of thing, try entering a "01" into MS-Excel and see how it automatically corrects it. The timing software doesn't care because it is just a text field up to four characters. Yes, I can change your number to a four letter word. :D

Lets use me as an example here. So my number is 669. If I raced RORU next year and finish 10th. What problems would we have if I ran the number 10 on a red back ground but kept my 669 to use in timing and scoring?

Besides confusing some people when they are out on track.

If this could happen next year I would for sure race RORU if it doesnt get erased.

[The GECCO]

Lets use me as an example here. So my number is 669. If I raced RORU next year and finish 10th. What problems would we have if I ran the number 10 on a red back ground but kept my 669 to use in timing and scoring?

What's to stop me from displaying 669 even though my number is 7 (and 54)? Nothing....besides the fact that 669 doesn't belong to me and that's why I can't run it.

If another rider legitimately earns #10 and you two happen to be racing the same classes the next season, there would be two #10's in the same race...sort of defeats the purpose of having numbers on the bikes to tell them apart. Having duplicate numbers with different background colors only creates more headaches for the manual scorekeepers.

As for the idea of "most points earns the #1"....I remember going to a CMRA race at Mid-America a few years back. I ran multiple classes and in every one of them I lapped (sometimes twice) some clown on a POS Honda Hawk (or something similar). Turns out he had two, low displacement, ultra slow POS bikes and between the two bikes he was legal for literally every class they ran. So he ran every race, and was horribly off the pace in every one of them, essentially a rolling chicane.

I'm thinking - "This is the guy who's going to be their #1 plate holder?" What a joke...If we go this route I can see a bunch of guys putting street tires on 250cc four stroke dirt bikes and going out to circulate, well off the pace, in virtually every race we run. Is this really how we want to decide the #1 plate?

Not to take anything away from Shannon and the others who run multiple races, I think the #1 plate should go to the guy who wins the premier championship. Period.

[Munch]

Lets use me as an example here. So my number is 669. If I raced RORU next year and finish 10th. What problems would we have if I ran the number 10 on a red back ground but kept my 669 to use in timing and scoring?

Red? No.

Pink? Maybe.

8)

[Scored51]

What's to stop me from displaying 669 even though my number is 7 (and 54)? Nothing....besides the fact that 669 doesn't belong to me and that's why I can't run it.

If another rider legitimately earns #10 and you two happen to be racing the same classes the next season, there would be two #10's in the same race...sort of defeats the purpose of having numbers on the bikes to tell them apart. Having duplicate numbers with different background colors only creates more headaches for the manual scorekeepers.

As for the idea of "most points earns the #1"....I remember going to a CMRA race at Mid-America a few years back. I ran multiple classes and in every one of them I lapped (sometimes twice) some clown on a POS Honda Hawk (or something similar). Turns out he had two, low displacement, ultra slow POS bikes and between the two bikes he was legal for literally every class they ran. So he ran every race, and was horribly off the pace in every one of them, essentially a rolling chicane.

I'm thinking - "This is the guy who's going to be their #1 plate holder?" What a joke...If we go this route I can see a bunch of guys putting street tires on 250cc four stroke dirt bikes and going out to circulate, well off the pace, in virtually every race we run. Is this really how we want to decide the #1 plate?

Not to take anything away from Shannon and the others who run multiple races, I think the #1 plate should go to the guy who wins the premier championship. Period.

Glenn, thanks for clarifying the scoring situation, but please go easy on the "Clapped Out Clan".

What is the difference in the joke of assigning a top ten plate to a rider on slow machine who runs a lot of races vs another set of riders in a single class who don't display the honor they have earned? Money. Right now, Joe Average racer signs up for less than 2 sprint races on any given weekend. In fact, he falls more than $30 short of a second sprint race in terms of revenue.

For the most part, the MRA doesn't have many small bikes running. The majority run a 600cc four cylinder bike. With the current class structure, one of these bikes could race as many as 10 races for experts, and 8 for a novice. Yet the reality of our situation is they race less than two, which is even less than last year.

As for the lap time difference, we already deal with this on a regular basis. The most dramatic of course is in Colorado Class with the leaders running 2:02's and the tail end at 3:24's. As long as it is a safe situation, why stop someone riding up as far as they are willing to go. I believe it's self-filtering as how many single cylinder machine are, or have run, in Middleweight Superbike in recent years?

Jon G. has already chimed in to say that he has seen this idea raise particicpation in club members, and the MRA has even done it in the past. Why not utilize a tool in our arsenal that won't cost anything to implement? If it doesn't have the desired affect, we can always change it back.

[Scored51]

I also wish we had that racer with a pair of Hawks. If he were running every class he could in the MRA, he would be spending close to $600 in registration fees every weekend!

[Throttleroller277]

Lets use me as an example here. So my number is 669. If I raced RORU next year and finish 10th. What problems would we have if I ran the number 10 on a red back ground but kept my 669 to use in timing and scoring?

What's to stop me from displaying 669 even though my number is 7 (and 54)? Nothing....besides the fact that 669 doesn't belong to me and that's why I can't run it.

If another rider legitimately earns #10 and you two happen to be racing the same classes the next season, there would be two #10's in the same race...sort of defeats the purpose of having numbers on the bikes to tell them apart. Having duplicate numbers with different background colors only creates more headaches for the manual scorekeepers.

As for the idea of "most points earns the #1"....I remember going to a CMRA race at Mid-America a few years back. I ran multiple classes and in every one of them I lapped (sometimes twice) some clown on a POS Honda Hawk (or something similar). Turns out he had two, low displacement, ultra slow POS bikes and between the two bikes he was legal for literally every class they ran. So he ran every race, and was horribly off the pace in every one of them, essentially a rolling chicane.

I'm thinking - "This is the guy who's going to be their #1 plate holder?" What a joke...If we go this route I can see a bunch of guys putting street tires on 250cc four stroke dirt bikes and going out to circulate, well off the pace, in virtually every race we run. Is this really how we want to decide the #1 plate?

Not to take anything away from Shannon and the others who run multiple races, I think the #1 plate should go to the guy who wins the premier championship. Period.

I have tried my best to stay out of this, But I have to agree with Glenn. I too was there at Mid America that weekend, and thought it was rather strange how "off pace" their #1 plate holder was.

8) Does anyone have photos of Glenn in a dress that weekend?.... \:D/

[Throttleroller277]

If this could happen next year I would for sure race RORU if it doesnt get erased.


Regardless of how you win a top ten plate, your 669 number is still yours in the system, regardless if you run the top 10 number or 669 on the bike. Just because you use the top ten number, doesn't mean that your original number is now "up for grabs" 8)

[JimWilson29]

I also wish we had that racer with a pair of Hawks. If he were running every class he could in the MRA, he would be spending close to $600 in registration fees every weekend!

So what you are saying is the purpose of the #1 plate (and top 10) is to establish the rules so that the club can extract as much money from possible from each racer instead of rewarding the fastest racer in club? In a sense you are proposing that the #1 plate can be bought instead of earned by having the resources for enough race bikes to enter as many classes as allowed to accumulate as many points as possible. The guys and girls out there with a single bike, that is not elgible for 8 classes, are not any less dedicated or committed than the racer that can afford multiple bikes. So should they not have the opprotunity to race for the #1 plate?

[Scored51]

So what you are saying is the purpose of the #1 plate (and top 10) is to establish the rules so that the club can extract as much money from possible from each racer instead of rewarding the fastest racer in club?

Yes. If those customers are spending money with the MRA, why not? I'm not suggesting we gouge everyone that walks through the door, but every fast food place I've ordered from has asked if I wanted to upsize my meal. I'm proposing an incentive for everyone interested in a top ten plate to sign up for more races. The majority of those who have earned top ten plates through Race of the Rockies doesn't run them. Additionally, the grids are so poorly attended this season I could be the 12th fastest racer in the club right now on an EX500 just by taking the start and pulling off. And THAT bike makes a Hawk GT look fast.


In a sense you are proposing that the #1 plate can be bought instead of earned by having the resources for enough race bikes to enter as many classes as allowed to accumulate as many points as possible.

Yes. What championship in motorsports hasn't ever been bought. If it's more money to purchase better equipment; money to buy more equipment; more dollars to spend on instruction, lapping days, etc. This will always be the case. Racing isn't expensive: winning is. If this isn't the case, why can't I win the #1 plate ROR style on a '91 Honda F2 with a budget of $10,000 (including the cost of the bike)?


The guys and girls out there with a single bike, that is not elgible for 8 classes, are not any less dedicated or committed than the racer that can afford multiple bikes. So should they not have the opprotunity to race for the #1 plate?

Currently only 2 riders of the top ten in the clubman championship run classes where a two bike program is necessary. Therefore 8 of the current top ten in points do not require running multiple bikes. The bike I was thinking about in my example was a 2000 Yamaha R6. Street value of $2,500? The Lightweight GP championship bike last year was rumored to be over $50,000 by the time it hit the track. What was the #1 bike in ROR-O worth?

With my suggestion, everyone (novice and expert alike) has the opportunity to run for the number #1 plate. Superimposing last years Novice results, I believe Erik Cromer would be on track for the #3 plate this year in the clubman championship.

[oldtimer]

I feel like the win here is we now have a Clubman Championship that rewards and recognizes our ironman racers. And every racer novice or expert is eligible already. :)

But for recognizing top 10 plates I still prefer it be the the premier class, which any expert on any bike may chose to compete in.

[Throttleroller277]

I feel like the win here is we now have a Clubman Championship that rewards and recognizes our ironman racers. And every racer novice or expert is eligible already. :)

But for recognizing top 10 plates I still prefer it be the the premier class, which any expert on any bike may chose to compete in.

+1
8) =D> 8)

[hcr25]

I feel like the win here is we now have a Clubman Championship that rewards and recognizes our ironman racers. And every racer novice or expert is eligible already. :)

But for recognizing top 10 plates I still prefer it be the the premier class, which any expert on any bike may chose to compete in.


Well said. But in my opinion most if not all the riders currently in the top ten Clubman points would run the classes they are in now with or without the current Clubman Championship.The incentive of a top ten plate could bring more sign ups.

As far as earning a top ten plate in ROR O, "The Premier Class" My guess with out looking at the current top ten in points would be, that several are in the top ten now from being consistent and not from being one of the top 10 fastest guys or even one of the top 30+ fastest guys in the club. They are earning it from being consistent, just like a slower guy racing multiple classes would be.
This statement in no way is directed at anyone in ROR O or clubman. I have been a backmarker in ROR O as well as many other class. I have only done one full season of it finishing 11th and I was not nearly one of the top 20 fast guys.

Our goal should be to figure out more ways to get our current racers to race more classes. This is just one idea. What can we do to bring more value to racers? Lower the entry fees? Nope we have fixed costs and the board has been doing great and reducing those.

Endurance grids are usually the biggest, Why? In my opinion laps for dollars spent. How can we give more laps in the day as it is now? We cant, not enough hours in the day. The only way to do this is drop some classes. Several have two or three racers in them now. Sure we have combined them where we can and those combined grids might actually get as big as 8 to 10. Now say we drop a few classes, we will lose entry fees from them and some might not even race any more. Would we get more sign ups if we were able to add a given number of laps to the remaining classes? Who knows but it is an idea. We still need to push hard to get new racers. Seems the biggest complaint is the cost. Yes before someone else says it, racing is expensive. How can we give more value without charging more? More laps maybe
Im not sure if I have ever typed this much in any MRA thread. Might be from puking all day at the track, maybe I'm delirious to finally have a full time job now.
:) :)

[The GECCO]

Glenn, thanks for clarifying the scoring situation, but please go easy on the "Clapped Out Clan".

FWIW, I wasn't saying that all Honda Hawks are POS, just that HIS was (whatever it/they were). Both of his bikes were cobbled together, crappy looking junk. I understand that not everyone has the resources to put together a brand new bike, but at least nearly everyone I see in our club takes pride in what they ride. I wouldn't have wanted this guys program to represent our club as the #1 rider.

It's funny how some discussions in the past regarding supersport rules and even some superbike rules centered around "how can we make racing cheaper? It's too expensive to run at the level necessary to win a championship" Now we're proposing a rule change that would virtually REQUIRE someone to spend lots more money in order to earn a top ten plate....I realize the club needs the money, but this just doesn't feel right for some reason.

I understand that everyone will still have free will to spend or not spend whatever amount they want on each weekend, this just seems to me to be a much more blatant way to be able to buy a championship. Right now it does realistically require a decent investment to put together a #1 program, but you also need to have the talent to ride the bike. Under the proposed system all you need is a big checkbook and the stamina necessary to run the laps. While I don't think these are insignificant things, I also don't think they are how we should decide our #1 plate holder.

[Louden]

"I like to get paid for what I do, but its not why I do what I do" Ayn Rand. I imagine the riders who choose not to display their top ten number plates do so knowing they have accomplished something great and therefore do not care if anyone else knows it or not. I know I'm just a super street rider, but it doesn't mean I don't aspire to someday stand by my bike knowing I accomplished something. Its sad for me to hear this club talk about recognition above all else. A white plate with a single black number is just a sign its the knowledge of all it took for the individual who carries it to make it what it is. So what makes a plate holder and or a hero a hero? I would define a hero as someone in the heat of battle overcoming unimaginable odds. In this sport the odds are against you, be it the cost, the time, or the ability. Clearly the riders who have the number plates now have managed to overcome all of the obstacles. Even though I may never have the time, the ability, or the money to compete for a plate I know that if I ever do I would want to done so head to head on the track not the points board and therefore making the moment all the more to live for.

Now even though I just said I love the obstacles required to compete in this class clearly the people on this thread want to make more money for the club and or compete for a plate as well, but it seems to me they can't justify the cost of a motorcycle that would be competitive and dissolve any funds for other races. So I suggest if you want there to be better turn out for the plate race we should try and get a pro rated bike (something capable of several classes so racers could still have one bike) and make the race a spec class.Yes the initial cost would be more for the guys wanting to compete but it would be a far more attainable an obstacle than the current situation and still make the race exactly what a race should be.

[Bartman]

Spec racing, lets take a look shall we.
Lets start with the newest spec series Moto 2, the season started out with some very good racing, some of the best ever in my years of watchin. But now just like everyother spec race in history the races are getting more spread out as the better riders and teams figure out how to make it work.
I understand the appeal of a spec class I really do but in my gut as a mechanic and racer it makes me want to wretch my guts out. I don't want my sport to go the way of Nascar with restictor plates and other such bullshit, if I have the knowledge to build a bike better or tune a bike better or ride a bike better why is that a bad thing, that is racing at its finest IMO.

[chrobis]

Even though I will most certainly never earn one, I too believe that the top ten numbers should be awarded based on the premier class, (currently) ROR-O. That being said, what follows will not effect the current alternate 1-10 numbers at all.

With the inclusion of one color to our number plate scheme, I can provide information identifying Class Champions, Clubman Top X, and Clubman Champion. I have used green as the additional color; a different color could obviously be used for implementation. More colors could identify more rider qualifications.

These all respresent a racer's status at the start of the current year, i.e., they represent the season ending stats of the prior year. As such I have only addressed Experts, (although it can easily be extended to Novices. Even if it is possible mathematically, there is virtually no chance that a novice will attain any of the new classifications without also advancing to Expert status for the current year.)

In the rider questions, if you can answer 'yes' to the 'IF', you aways have the option of choosing the 'ELSE' branch. If everybody did that we would end with all experts displaying black numbers on white plates. Sound familiar?)

The only people that could possibly be forced to change their number plate display would be ROR-O numbers 2-9, but only if a) they were using the (current) alternate scheme of white numbers / black plate AND b) they weren't a class champion.

From a rider's perspective:
IF Clubman Champion THEN Green Plate
ELSE
IF Class Champion THEN Black Plate
ELSE
White Plate

[Green Plate]
IF Class Champion THEN Black Number ELSE White Number


IF Clubman Top X THEN Green Number ELSE White Number

[White Plate]
IF Clubman Top X THEN Green Number ELSE Black Number

[b]To identify a racer's classification:
IF Green Plate and Black Number THEN Clubman Champion and Class Champion
IF Green Plate and White Number THEN Clubman Champion

IF Black Plate and Green Number THEN Class Champion and Clubman Top X
IF Black Plate and White Number THEN Class Champion

IF White Plate and Green Number THEN Clubman Top X
IF White Plate and Black Number THEN no distinction

One possible financial incentive would be an additional discount in the current year for any Clubman Top X from the prior year. Something like: your last race is free if you register for so many races; an additional price cut below the current $20 - maybe $15 after 1/2/3 $20's. Calculating the optimum value for 'X' would be entertaining.

[Scored51]

Oooh, I shouldn't read these posts when I'm drunk. :? :oops: :-(0)

[froth]

Yes, Chris, you should. Cheater.

[longrider]

I know I am late to this thread but I will toss this out as an old-timer who when I was actively racing the top ten numbers were awarded on the clubman principle. I also earned a top ten number racing the equivalent of a Supersport bike in a bunch of classes.

I do not think it is a good idea as it devalues the top 10 ranking to something that either consistency or a big wallet can buy. If you are consistent in finishing and not crashing while racing several classes including small classes (only 5 entries guarantees you 5th place points) you can easily get a top 10. To be honest that is how I earned my single digit, no way in the world was I one of the 10 fastest riders in the club.

The 'buying' the championship argument admittedly applies to a certain extent even now, however currently you still have to be a great rider, money IMO can only buy you 3 or 4 places. With clubman if you can build 3 or 4 bikes to the top of the specs you can guarantee yourself a top 10.

IMO the use/display of a number should be a totally separate discussion from how it is awarded.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

From a rider's perspective:
IF Clubman Champion THEN Green Plate
ELSE
IF Class Champion THEN Black Plate
ELSE
White Plate

[Green Plate]
IF Class Champion THEN Black Number ELSE White Number


IF Clubman Top X THEN Green Number ELSE White Number

[White Plate]
IF Clubman Top X THEN Green Number ELSE Black Number

[b]To identify a racer's classification:
IF Green Plate and Black Number THEN Clubman Champion and Class Champion
IF Green Plate and White Number THEN Clubman Champion

IF Black Plate and Green Number THEN Class Champion and Clubman Top X
IF Black Plate and White Number THEN Class Champion

IF White Plate and Green Number THEN Clubman Top X
IF White Plate and Black Number THEN no distinction


I calculate a McCabe cyclomatic complexity of Chris' post as 15 and think it should be refactored. Anyone else?

[chrobis]

Actually Jim, it comes out to 17. If it had been 15, then yes, refactoring would have been in order, but 17, being prime, precludes that. Do you see this now?

[JWinter]

I have another idea! Let's just ditch the top ten plates!!! The only number allowed to the RORO champ is the number 1. Everybody else runs their own friggen number (sorry Otis). Allow 2-10 to be given out just like any other number, fist come first served.

Max Biaggi always runs the number 3, Josh Hayes the number 4, etc.

OR just award the top 5 in RORO. Then award 6-10 to the top RORU riders.

Chris, I understand your theory of more revenue with the clubman #1 plate but... If we want more revenue in our club it needs to be new money like super street. By that I mean a new group of people and not just taxing the same people over and over for more money. If we want more; let's quit shuffling the same deck of cards! As we can all see by the numbers that we have more success when we have more racers. Not less racers spending more money.

Adding a formula 40 class, changing the top ten plate structure, adding lightweight SS or SB, changing the twins displacement or slipper clutch rules aren't going to get 100 new potential racers out of the canyons or the street and into our club. Super street started the change now where do we go next? How do we attract more people to our club. I think the Ninja 250 spec class is a good step. $60 endurance races are popular. Why? Because people can afford that.

I better stop before I cause too much trouble, Jeff

[glenngsxr]

late to the party here, but a couple of things stick out immediately.

What about the folks who work at shops? Most of them can't make Saturdays and therefore, are already disadvantaged in reaching a top ten plate.

I guess in my mind I don't buy the increased number of entry fees argument. I don't think the average racer is thinking they are gonna empty their wallet and sign up for as much racing as possible so they can secure a top ten plate because at that point, what does the top ten plate even mean??? It means that you are willing to spend more money to go race at this level. Has nothing to do with being an Ironman or anything like that.

My vote is to leave the rules as they stand. This is a seriously competitive sport and I don't like the idea of giving out participation rewards.

[Scored51]

Not late, wrong day. This was vote down dang near unanimously (I had to stick my hand up because I proposed it) and I can't see it changing at the board meeting to ratify the rules. Don't worry, the top ten plates will safely rest with those in ROR-O in 2011.

[JimWilson29]

Don't worry, the top ten plates will safely rest with those in ROR-O in 2011.

Actually thats not what we decided at the meeting for top 10 plates if you recall.

[Scored51]

Actually thats not what we decided at the meeting for top 10 plates if you recall.

Yes sir. It was however the simple answer since it is all tide up with the Race of the Rockies changes yet to be fleshed out by the Board of Directors. I hope I haven't overstepped any bounds.