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View Full Version : Lengthen endurance race time, Reduce endurance practice.



Electroman
September 30th, 2009, 11:16 AM
Reduce endurance practice time by 5 minutes. Increase endurance race time by 5 minutes.

Rule book:
Section 2.7 C: Typical endurance races are solo events lasting 30 minutes.

Change to: Typical endurance races are solo events lasting 35 minutes.

gsnyder828
September 30th, 2009, 11:27 AM
I tried to get the endurance races extended to 45m a couple years back... I believe I also suggested a higher entry fee ($75) for the longer race in hopes to add $$ to the club. That's when they changed the wording to "typical...", saying they'd look at longer races when possible/take votes @ riders mtgs, etc. Never seen a normal endurance race extended beyond 30m though.

Personally I'd like to see the endurance practice ditched and replaced with 45m races. After all - endurance practice is a leftover from the days when you had to pay more $$ for Sat. a.m. practice. Now that has been abolished - let's add it to the race time.

Then we could actually have a race that requires some (if only a little) endurance. :mrgreen:

DOUBLE A
September 30th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Hell yeah & I would like to see at least once a year event with more than one rider per team, and like 4 hour endurance race!

Jim 'smooth' Brewer
September 30th, 2009, 01:22 PM
Hell yeah & I would like to see at least once a year event with more than one rider per team, and like 4 hour endurance race!
Ok, let's consider that a suggestion! We skipped a couple of the 30 min enduros this year for misc reasons (USGPRU, MPH double header) so skipping a 30 min in favor of a longer team event makes good sense.

Geoff's (?) point about practice being blended now is a good one!

Electroman
September 30th, 2009, 02:46 PM
I see some logical cutoff time lengths based on two factors. Tires and fuel.

1.) Does the race time require a gas stop? That would increase the cost because folks would want quick fuel systems and that is pricey. There is also a safety factor that one must consider when handling fuel quickly around a hot race bike.

2.) Does the race time require a tire change?. Again folks would want captured bearings and spaced front brake disks to decrease tire change times. Tires and bike modifications would increase the price to race.

In summary, I'm for longer endurance races. I would race a 45 minute endurance race. A 4 hour race would be really cool.

DOUBLE A
September 30th, 2009, 03:21 PM
FuK yeah I think this is the bestest idea ever let's get to the decision makers ASAP!!!

polar x
September 30th, 2009, 03:44 PM
Correct me if I am wrong Jim, but don't we already have the ability to extend the race to 45 mins? I thought that we were supposed to take a vote at each race about that.

T Baggins
September 30th, 2009, 03:52 PM
The down-side to getting rid of the endurance practice is that many of the endurance racers don't come out until around Noon. If we did away with the practice, they wouldn't get any practice at all...

Something to think about anyway.

gsnyder828
September 30th, 2009, 04:07 PM
The down-side to getting rid of the endurance practice is that many of the endurance racers don't come out until around Noon. If we did away with the practice, they wouldn't get any practice at all...

Something to think about anyway.

Really?

I figured that was no longer true since a.m. practice is free and the morning riders meeting is mandatory.

Is there a way to get a count/percentage of folks who show up @ noon to judge the impact? And how do they get around the riders meeting requirement?

polar x
September 30th, 2009, 06:39 PM
They get around the riders meeting req by not being req to attend since they are ONLY doing Endurance. They are the only ones who get a free pass.

Blue Junk
September 30th, 2009, 06:59 PM
If you guys had a single 4hour race per season, my team would be happy to show up and participate!!

froth
September 30th, 2009, 07:17 PM
We raced a four hour event some time back. Rain, floods, it was freaking awesome ('cause I didn't have to ride on the slicks when it started to deluge, many thanks to Eric S. for that part).
I enjoy the longer events, and would go for the four hour format for sure.

One hour events would also be pretty fun, because you could crash, repair/retech, and get back into the mix.

DOUBLE A
September 30th, 2009, 08:22 PM
this is awesome if you want to race endurance just show up and practice in the morning or get nuun! put up or shut up...lol let's do it....way more sceptics for all the other ideas and this one has none let's proceed!!!!

Jim 'smooth' Brewer
October 1st, 2009, 05:00 PM
Correct me if I am wrong Jim, but don't we already have the ability to extend the race to 45 mins? I thought that we were supposed to take a vote at each race about that.

You are correct, sir. We can vary the length of solo endurances without changing the rulebook.

We *were* going to alternate 45min/30min between the Open/HW race and the MW/LW race this year but we took a vote at the first race and the majority said, "no".

Maybe the prospect of doing an 11 race season that way was intimidating?

polar x
October 1st, 2009, 05:13 PM
Thank you Jim for confirming that I am not loosing all of my memory, only a small portion for now. :? :wink:

Now a nother question, were these the same people that "voted" last year for said endurance races to be extended for this year and then "voted" to keep it at 30 mins??? :roll:

gsnyder828
October 1st, 2009, 05:32 PM
We *were* going to alternate 45min/30min between the Open/HW race and the MW/LW race this year but we took a vote at the first race and the majority said, "no".


I've got to admit I don't recall that vote...

but regardless - that's pretty disappointing. Racer's not wanting a longer race? Weird.

rybo
October 1st, 2009, 05:41 PM
Geoff,

I remember this. We did it for the first few rounds and it was done by show of hands at the Saturday riders meeting. The plan was to alternate by race weekend between the HW/ Open Endurance being 45min on one race weekend and the LW/MW Endurance being 45min on the next weekend.

I would look forward to longer endurance races for sure.

s

gsnyder828
October 1st, 2009, 06:21 PM
Oh, I believe you Scott - and I believe(d) Jim too.

My memory is far too fragile and fleeting - I certainly wasn't trying to imply it didn't happen.

:oops:

DOUBLE A
October 1st, 2009, 08:58 PM
my noodle is fryed because I don't recall that???

racedk6
October 1st, 2009, 11:49 PM
I think that getting rid of the endurance practice is a good idea.
You can extend the lengths of the race.
If you want to practice show up in the morning and make the normal riders meeting like everybody else does.
Doing this would also eliminate the need for a riders meeting at lunch on Saturday.

racedk6
October 1st, 2009, 11:52 PM
Im also all for a 4 hour team endurance, where you use your own bikes and just pass off the transponder. That takes the need for tire changes and hot pit refuelling out of the question :wink:

I would suggest doing it mid season between rounds. If we plan on doing 8 races next year then lets throw this into the mix!

DOUBLE A
October 2nd, 2009, 07:24 AM
WORD

auzzy
October 2nd, 2009, 09:14 AM
I like this idea as well :twisted:

Scored51
October 2nd, 2009, 10:04 AM
... use your own bikes and just pass off the transponder.

I say the stipulation with the transponder is it needs to have the clip safety wired at each rider change. Cut the wire, pull the pin, move it to the new bike, and safety wire the pin closed. This puts some pit stop skills back into the mix without a huge amount of effort and equipment.

DOUBLE A
October 2nd, 2009, 12:13 PM
there is othe way to accomplish it w/o the transponder swap idea. Though you could just put in a leg pouch and pass the pouch from rider to rider, simple velcro will suffice.

dragos13
October 2nd, 2009, 12:17 PM
Are we proposing to do this for only one event, or the entire season?

joe859
October 2nd, 2009, 04:56 PM
The original post was to lengthen the races slightly, reduce the practice time. Good idea. Eliminating the endurance practices would be fine with me. 45 minutes I think should be about max for a solo effort. I've seen lots of riders visibly slow a significant amount the last couple laps of a 30 minute race, maybe we should make sure we're not scaring any potential entries (and the $$) off by making this too difficult. The grid at the last MW Endo was awesome, I don't see that happening for a 45 minute race, though.

The bigtime longass race could be like the "pony express" we did at Pueblo with Mark, I did it, what a hoot! The weird thing is, you can have 28 people signed up, but only have 7 bikes on the track at any given time. Also, you couldn't really work the results of this race into the year-end standings, how would the points work? It would have to be a stand-alone.

Anyway, I'm buying a new bike just to do endurance, so bring it on!

racedk6
October 2nd, 2009, 05:04 PM
Are we proposing to do this for only one event, or the entire season?

I propose it as a mid race lets have some fun race! WERA has some wicked endurance races and I would like to have something like that once a year so I dont have to drive 36 hrs to go do one!

I also think it would be something that could bring riders from other states, because not only can the come race out here but... they get to ride the track for quite a bit of time!

DOUBLE A
October 2nd, 2009, 05:09 PM
The original post was to lengthen the races slightly, reduce the practice time. Good idea. Eliminating the endurance practices would be fine with me. 45 minutes I think should be about max for a solo effort. I've seen lots of riders visibly slow a significant amount the last couple laps of a 30 minute race, maybe we should make sure we're not scaring any potential entries (and the $$) off by making this too difficult. The grid at the last MW Endo was awesome, I don't see that happening for a 45 minute race, though.

The bigtime longass race could be like the "pony express" we did at Pueblo with Mark, I did it, what a hoot! The weird thing is, you can have 28 people signed up, but only have 7 bikes on the track at any given time. Also, you couldn't really work the results of this race into the year-end standings, how would the points work? It would have to be a stand-alone.

Anyway, I'm buying a new bike just to do endurance, so bring it on!

WHO CARES ABOUT THE STANDINGS, EVERYONE WILL KNOW THE TEAM THAT WON!!! 8)

racedk6
October 2nd, 2009, 06:23 PM
The original post was to lengthen the races slightly, reduce the practice time. Good idea. Eliminating the endurance practices would be fine with me. 45 minutes I think should be about max for a solo effort. I've seen lots of riders visibly slow a significant amount the last couple laps of a 30 minute race, maybe we should make sure we're not scaring any potential entries (and the $$) off by making this too difficult. The grid at the last MW Endo was awesome, I don't see that happening for a 45 minute race, though.

The bigtime longass race could be like the "pony express" we did at Pueblo with Mark, I did it, what a hoot! The weird thing is, you can have 28 people signed up, but only have 7 bikes on the track at any given time. Also, you couldn't really work the results of this race into the year-end standings, how would the points work? It would have to be a stand-alone.

Anyway, I'm buying a new bike just to do endurance, so bring it on!

WHO CARES ABOUT THE STANDINGS, EVERYONE WILL KNOW THE TEAM THAT WON!!! 8)


Dude look at the button on the left hand side of the key board. Yes the one labelled "Caps Lock". Next time you reply make sure not to push it in. :wink:

DOUBLE A
October 2nd, 2009, 06:30 PM
hey are you tall enuf to see that button..... :lol:

racedk6
October 2nd, 2009, 08:46 PM
hey are you tall enuf to see that button..... :lol:


Hahaha :lol:

I'm tall ENOUGH to spell correctly! :wink:

Scored51
October 4th, 2009, 12:13 PM
The original post was to... have 28 people signed up, but only have 7 bikes on the track at any given time.

Hey, let's combine two ideas for next year and have a pony express race with the super street class! :lol:

BTW, the pony express race we ran at Pueblo was even better than a straight relay because the teams were handicapped by design to all finish at the same time with the same amount of laps. The more we do them, the better the math would get, and the closer the finishes.

clowe
October 12th, 2009, 09:50 AM
All,

I was part of that 4 hour endurance with Frank, Chris and Shannon. In fact, I think we won! Here are just a few thing things to think about when talking about these longer races, increasing fees for endurance or taking away/shortening endurance practice. We are hurting as a club right now for $$$$, upping entry fees will drive away more people than we will see the club make in profits. Making the races longer will drive people away because will have to spend more in fuel and more in tires (what I mean by this is they will be less likely to be able to use those tires for more races). Everyone wanted that 4 hour race but when the time came there were only a few people who showed up! Everyone screamed for longer endurance races but when the people racing were there and it was time to run the race, almost everyone voted to keep it at 30 minutes. Lastly, taking practice away from those who are only getting 15 minutes of practice anyway is a bad idea. Trying to tell those people that now they have to be at the track for the whole day and practice in the morning will drive people who only come for endurance racing away. Also, a 10 minute session for a lot of these folks at HPR is like 4 or 5 laps if that. Before we spend too much time work on these things lets just remember how this worked out in the past.

All that said, I am all for longer endurance races, 4 hour events or team events. I love that stuff and it would be a hoot.

Thanks,

Crash

benfoxmra95
October 12th, 2009, 10:58 AM
why not separate MRA race weekends for the enduracnce races?

totally separate days from the normal schedule. we'll take a monday sometime in between mra events. or whatever, im sure there's plenty of sat or sundays available next summer at PPIR the way they've been running the place.

THis could be put on by a separate promoter, like vanmar, or chicane, or The Ben Fox Motorcycle Roadracing Federation of Effin Bad Ass's, the "BFMRFEBA" for short.

It'll be a 6 hour event, gto/gtu run what you brung, you can ride your own bike you can share a bike, what ever, you just have to limit yourself to one hour on the track with a one hour break into between sessions.

We can run it like a handicap as well where the fastest riders have a time penalty they are working against to even out the field, this worked pretty darn well at the vanmar endurance classic two years ago, Jim wilson and i were a two man team against i think 3 and 4 man teams and we were pretty close to winning the thing but jim had too walk his dogs during one of his stints and that slowed us up...J/K....

gsnyder828
October 12th, 2009, 12:37 PM
Crash - thanks for your input. I'd just like to address a couple points you make:

We are hurting as a club right now for $$$$, upping entry fees will drive away more people than we will see the club make in profits.
I agree with the first part of that - but [Only referring to endurance races] how do you know that it will drive people away? Without some level of knowledge of the price elasticity we can only try it, see the results - and make corrections if needed. If we raise prices 50% (to $75/race) and lose 20% participation - the club makes more $$. In fact - we'd have to lose 1 in 3 racers to not make more $$ for the club.

Making the races longer will drive people away because will have to spend more in fuel and more in tires (what I mean by this is they will be less likely to be able to use those tires for more races).
Maybe - or maybe more folks will come out b/c they get that much more track time. Why not try a couple longer races and see the results? Example - if we have back to back HPR races next year - let's do one 30m endurance and one 45m. If total weekend participation (macro level) is the same, but the endurance races are wildly different - either direction - then that's info the board can use for planning future schedules - and it's a low risk experiment.

Everyone screamed for longer endurance races but when the people racing were there and it was time to run the race, almost everyone voted to keep it at 30 minutes.
Actually - I think it was mostly me who suggested it last year... :D and you're right, not enough folks voted for it at the beginning of this year. Fair enough... strange, IMO - but hey, one guy was fighting for rain tires in SS for years before it finally got passed. Interested vocal minorities and all that... :wink:

Lastly, taking practice away from those who are only getting 15 minutes of practice anyway is a bad idea. Trying to tell those people that now they have to be at the track for the whole day and practice in the morning will drive people who only come for endurance racing away.
Honestly - how many people is this? And why is it a bad idea when we say the same thing to the novice moto-shop worker who works Saturdays, owns a 1000cc bike and can only race AmO? And he/she gets to pay $160- for the opportunity.

I've only noticed one person who does the "show up late in the pm" thing, and the guy/gal I'm thinking of - more often than not - didn't seem to have a bike that ran come time for the race.

The reality is that for $50 someone can practice 3 sessions in the morning, 1 session in the afternoon, race a 30 min race - stick around and ride 2 more practice sessions the NEXT DAY. 7 sessions in all with corner workers for $50.

IMO that seems a little out of line with the economics of racing, let alone track days.

I think it's reasonable that endurance racers pay more $$ - for the benefit of the club - and I plan on racing both endurance races next year (even if we get lucky and they're 45m) so this will hit my wallet more than most 8) .

JimWilson29
October 12th, 2009, 02:00 PM
why not separate MRA race weekends for the enduracnce races?

totally separate days from the normal schedule. we'll take a monday sometime in between mra events. or whatever, im sure there's plenty of sat or sundays available next summer at PPIR the way they've been running the place.

THis could be put on by a separate promoter, like vanmar, or chicane, or The Ben Fox Motorcycle Roadracing Federation of Effin Bad Ass's, the "BFMRFEBA" for short.

It'll be a 6 hour event, gto/gtu run what you brung, you can ride your own bike you can share a bike, what ever, you just have to limit yourself to one hour on the track with a one hour break into between sessions.

We can run it like a handicap as well where the fastest riders have a time penalty they are working against to even out the field, this worked pretty darn well at the vanmar endurance classic two years ago, Jim wilson and i were a two man team against i think 3 and 4 man teams and we were pretty close to winning the thing but jim had too walk his dogs during one of his stints and that slowed us up...J/K....

sorry about that Ben http://smiliesftw.com/x/dog.gif