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T Baggins
September 9th, 2009, 10:30 AM
Here are some suggestions:

Three possible suggestions for ROR - primarily due to declining entries...

1) keep both ROR O and ROR U - but allow smaller displacement bikes to ride up in ROR O.

2) combine the two classes into a single ROR, and increase the payout with the ROR U purse being added in - with payout to 20th instead of 15th.

3) combine the two classes, and run a two-race format per weekend. Race 1 would run where ROR U is, and Race 2 would run where ROR O is. Combined finishes would determine overall payout for the weekend. i.e.: Two firsts, equals first overall. First and 15th would be approx 8th overall, etc... Race 1 of the weekend would grid by accumulated season points. Race 2 would grid by finishing position in Race 1 (sorta makes race 1 a qualifier...). Entry fees would consider this a SINGLE entry (don't have to pay double) and the surcharge would be flat $50 per rider.
_________________
Tony Baker #21
aka "The 'effin Vice President!"


and...


I'd like to add a 4th possibility, in the wake of declining club revenues:

4) Combine the two classes, retain the current ROR - O payout schedule and eliminate the ROR - U payouts.

The additional funds are badly needed for a strong recovery in the MRA. Establish a "reserve" amount for the MRA bank account and once that reserve is met and maintained for a full season consider adding additional payouts.

** above added by Rybo


and...


2.4.1 Class Displacement and Configuration Limits

Remove section 5 (delete ROR GTU)

Modify section 6 to read:

6. Race Of the Rockies GTO
• Unlimited displacement and origin
• All RoR GTO riders are required to possess a valid MRA license as per 3.2.D.4

Removes requirement to race a full season as an expert prior to entry and removes ROR GTU bike exclusions
_________________
Geoff Snyder
#76



Allow additional discussion now...

racedk6
September 9th, 2009, 11:35 AM
How about keeping the 2 ROR classes but only paying out to the top 10 in each class?

Or do it on a entry based format and only pay out to half the grid.

T Baggins
September 9th, 2009, 01:01 PM
How about keeping the 2 ROR classes but only paying out to the top 10 in each class?

Or do it on a entry based format and only pay out to half the grid.

If you did that, my opinion is that the guys who "know" they're gonna finish 11th or worse won't even bother to run. Again, remember we're trying to increase participation, not just cut costs. We have much more to gain by increasing participation.

cakake
September 10th, 2009, 09:07 PM
Why do we have RoR payouts at all? When you (individual, business, club) are in financial trouble, you need to look at every expenditure and ask what you are getting for that money. My question is, what does the club get for the RoR money it pays? Here are numbers I've pulled from entry docs and posts from various board members, along with estimates from previous weekends. My numbers are likely not exact, but in the ball park.

RoR payouts per weekend ~$6,000
RoR surcharges per weekend assuming 15 racers per RoR race - $1350

$6,000 - $1,350 = $4,650 but let's round it down to $4,500 since these are estimations anyway

That means the MRA has to cover the remaining $4,500 per weekend for these payouts. What is the benefit to the MRA of making these payouts? That's a *lot* of money over a full season that the MRA could desperately use. I realize that the club has reduced/suspended MRA payouts the last 2 weekends. But what would our financial situation be if they hadn't made any payouts for the entire season?

Seen another way, that $4,500 per weekend that the club has to pay out comes from the entry fees from all the racers. Assuming we have 100 racers sign up, $45 from every racer's entries go to paying the guys who race RoR. If we have 150 racers, it's about $30 of each racer's entries for RoR payout.

With no RoR payouts, the club's financial situation certainly looks more attractive. Maybe that means there's an opportunity to lower entry fees to attract more racers, or buy more air fence, or pay more corner workers, or more PR, or........ fill in what you think the MRA could use.

Anyway, at this point I'm not suggesting we eliminate all RoR payouts, I just want to know what we're getting for that money the club pays out. Once we know the value of paying out money in RoR, maybe then we can determine an appropriate amount for the payouts.


Eric Borch #73

snay
September 15th, 2009, 10:35 AM
Why do we have RoR payouts at all? When you (individual, business, club) are in financial trouble, you need to look at every expenditure and ask what you are getting for that money. My question is, what does the club get for the RoR money it pays? Here are numbers I've pulled from entry docs and posts from various board members, along with estimates from previous weekends. My numbers are likely not exact, but in the ball park.

RoR payouts per weekend ~$6,000
RoR surcharges per weekend assuming 15 racers per RoR race - $1350

$6,000 - $1,350 = $4,650 but let's round it down to $4,500 since these are estimations anyway

That means the MRA has to cover the remaining $4,500 per weekend for these payouts. What is the benefit to the MRA of making these payouts? That's a *lot* of money over a full season that the MRA could desperately use. I realize that the club has reduced/suspended MRA payouts the last 2 weekends. But what would our financial situation be if they hadn't made any payouts for the entire season?

Seen another way, that $4,500 per weekend that the club has to pay out comes from the entry fees from all the racers. Assuming we have 100 racers sign up, $45 from every racer's entries go to paying the guys who race RoR. If we have 150 racers, it's about $30 of each racer's entries for RoR payout.

With no RoR payouts, the club's financial situation certainly looks more attractive. Maybe that means there's an opportunity to lower entry fees to attract more racers, or buy more air fence, or pay more corner workers, or more PR, or........ fill in what you think the MRA could use.

Anyway, at this point I'm not suggesting we eliminate all RoR payouts, I just want to know what we're getting for that money the club pays out. Once we know the value of paying out money in RoR, maybe then we can determine an appropriate amount for the payouts.


Eric Borch #73DAM is this correct :-k

T Baggins
September 15th, 2009, 11:02 AM
Remember that we already have initiated the following protocol:

140 or more PAID riders = Full ROR Payout

120 - 139 PAID riders = 1/2 ROR Payout

119 or fewer PAID riders = NO ROR Payout - BUT the ROR surcharge is refunded to the rider, essentially making it the cost of a normal sprint race.

I'm not suggesting this is the end-all, but it is a move we made mid season to help balance out a bit. Depending on what happens with the ROR classes, we DEFINITELY should look at the payout amounts and make adjustments accordingly - perhaps still keeping the above in place, even with a reduced payout?

After looking at what the AFM pays their guys (for example) I'd say we're EXTREMELY generous with our payout in the MRA. Their Formula Pacific pays 5 deep, and the TOTAL payout is only $1000. Also note that the entirety of the cash payout for their classes is provided by the class sponsor, NOT by the AFM itself...

http://www.afmracing.org/content/view/54/73/

As far as "what we're getting for our money with the payouts" - I guess the argument could be that we're attracting the top talent from the region to compete in our premier class. The question becomes, would they come anyway simply for the championship (not to mention the contingency money they make in the other manufacturer supported classes)?

The better answer, however, is probably "well, this is what we've always done and it's worked pretty well until now..."

Until now. :?

rybo
September 16th, 2009, 12:54 PM
Remember that we already have initiated the following protocol:

140 or more PAID riders = Full ROR Payout

120 - 139 PAID riders = 1/2 ROR Payout

119 or fewer PAID riders = NO ROR Payout

I'm not suggesting this is the end-all, but it is a move we made mid season to help balance out a bit. Depending on what happens with the ROR classes, we DEFINITELY should look at the payout amounts and make adjustments accordingly - perhaps still keeping the above in place, even with a reduced payout?

After looking at what the AFM pays their guys (for example) I'd say we're EXTREMELY generous with our payout in the MRA. Their Formula Pacific pays 5 deep, and the TOTAL payout is only $1000. Also note that the entirety of the cash payout for their classes is provided by the class sponsor, NOT by the AFM itself...

http://www.afmracing.org/content/view/54/73/

As far as "what we're getting for our money with the payouts" - I guess the argument could be that we're attracting the top talent from the region to compete in our premier class. The question becomes, would they come anyway simply for the championship (not to mention the contingency money they make in the other manufacturer supported classes)?

The better answer, however, is probably "well, this is what we've always done and it's worked pretty well until now..."

Until now. :?

I see that we had to alter the payout schedule mid stream for 2009, but I have to say as a racer I would HATE that system. If I signed up for ROR on a given weekend and THOUGHT I could go in the top 5 only to discover that 119 riders showed up that weekend AFTER I had committed to buying tires, fuel etc for an ROR type race I would be really disappointed.

I think the way for the MRA to move forward is to continue on a reduced ROR payout schedule, but have that schedule be posted up front. No changes on race day/ weekend.

One way to accomplish this is that we take ROR U completely away (along with it's payouts) Let the fast 600 guys race in ROR (the race formerly known as ROR-O). Dalton proved pretty well that a fast guy on a 600 can be competitive in that class at the last round.

Then we have a payout schedule that is reduced by 35%-40% and can put that money towards a reserve fund for the MRA to fall back upon given a tough race weekend or season. I would support a 20K -40K reserve (cost of 1-2 race weekends if NO ONE shows up). Once that reserve is met and maintained we can again talk about increasing payouts.

I too looked at the AFM for an example and gathered some additional information:

Now, be aware that the AFM has about 1200 members, and we have about 250


Race license
AFM $140
MRA $150

First Race Entry
AFM $ 75
MRA $160

Race 2 Entry
AFM $ 50
MRA $ 40

Race 3 Entry
AFM $ 50
MRA $ 30

Race 4 Entry
AFM $ 50
MRA $ 20

So for a racer to race in the MRA 4 races a weekend the difference is only $25 from AFM. MRA rewards multiple race riders, AFM encourages single race riders. A different philosophy that gets roughly the same result. The difference is that the AFM is retaining the entry fees and the MRA is paying them out to competitors in ROR.

It is also worth noting that the AFM offers payout from sponsors in multiple classes, including a 250 spec class and a 600 production class.

I'm all for a greatly reduced ROR payout scheudle, but I don't race ROR, so I'm not really affected.

From what I can tell no current competitor in ROR has chimed in on this subject. PLEASE let us know what you guys think!

dragos13
September 16th, 2009, 02:07 PM
I would like to ask why we (or any club) offer purse payouts to begin with?

I think we try to build the idea of a premier class. It attracts other racers from other clubs to come run with us. Do you think Josh Galster, Kane Lasky, or any of the other "out of town" racers would run a 14 lap race if there was no prize money? Factories dont pay out money for RORU right?

If we consolidate RORU and RORO then the only prize, and only reason to run, would be for a top 10 number plate. That means nothing to the AMA fast guys so they probably wouldn't compete.

Do we want to remove the idea of having a premier class? Lower the competition and possibly the ability to keep racers and spectators at the track til the very end of the day?

dragos13
September 16th, 2009, 02:12 PM
I run RORU so obviously I would like the highest payout as possible. When each spot means more money, you race a little harder.

If the club needs to cut payouts to stay afloat then I say do it. But, if in return we get less entrants, less surcharges, and less spectators due to not attracting so many top racers, then when does cutting ROR payout actually cost us money?

T Baggins
September 16th, 2009, 04:22 PM
Scott, notice that I edited my original post whereby I forgot to mention that "if" we nuke the payout altogether, we refund the ROR surcharge:

119 or fewer PAID riders = NO ROR Payout - BUT the ROR surcharge is refunded to the rider, essentially making it the cost of a normal sprint race.

I think a "damn the torpedos, we're paying ROR no matter what" attitude is part of what got us in this predicament in the first place - regardless of the payout amount. If we have a weekend where we're either going to break even or lose $5,000 because we pay out ROR purse - what argument can you make to the membership that this is in the best interest of the club?

Even if you reduce the payout to $3000, that's still $3000 lost for the weekend. It never comes back. Ever.

At Hastings, it would have made a difference of us losing $23,000 as we did vs. $12,000 had we not paid out ROR.

Impacting 90% of our members by going into the red - so that 10% of our membership can benefit financially is not a "club oriented approach" imnsho. And if it serves to ultimately bankrupt the club, that will obviously impact the ROR guys as well.

If anything, maybe it would incent the ROR guys to get more involved and be sure that they are dragging as many other racers out with them so they can get paid! :lol:

Or, maybe we should go to an "old school" championship whereby the rider who does the best, IN THE MOST CLASSES, becomes the champion?

AFM used to do it like that. Whoever had the MOST TOTAL ACCUMULATED points at the end of the season was the champion. To make it fairer, however, they weighted the finishes so that a sandbagger guy who won 9 races a day (that each only had 3 riders in it) couldn't win the championship. You got points for your finishing position PLUS one more point for each person on the grid who you beat.

So a guy who wins Colorado Class would get 30 for the win, and 7 more for beating eveyone = 37 points

whereas a guy who wins Amateur GTU gets 30 for the win, and 39 more for beating everyone else = 69 points.

Then, at the end of the season you take your top 15 overall, give them nice big plaques, and a check equal to the ONE weekend payout for RORO.

That would save the club a crap-ton of money, and REALLY incent people to ride in as many classes as possible. A guy like Shannon Moho would have as good a chance at winning the championship as Shame Turpin!

Cool!

phildrummond
September 16th, 2009, 08:46 PM
I think the idea of a #1 MRA plate is cool. Not to take anything away from the ROR guys, as I'm pretty confident a fancy bike and 10 years of pratice would not have me running with them, but as a slow poke, here's my take.

I'm watching the #1 ROR guy compete with 8-15 guys. Nov and Am fields have 45+ some days. It's more exciting to watch a bunch of slow guys duke it out than to see fast guys come streaming by 1 at a time, 10 seconds apart. Good racing will get my gate fee, but it's only $10.

It's normal that premier races will bring in the crowds and the weekend leads up to the big race. However, participation will fund the MRA, not gate fees. Dangling the prize of an MRA plate will incent more entries. Someone who won't win everything but will place consistenly high, enter many races and beat a ton of people stands a good chance.

If we have that structure, I'd rather have it open to experts only. It seems novices are well-represented. White plates have been scarce this year and how would you measure Novice points against Expert points when there are more novices to beat and Experts only race them in Am?

So, my 1 cent (I'm not fast enough for 2):

1. Whatever you pay ROR, make it consistent. You can't change it during a race weekend.

2. RORU and O - open to 600s for both and you can race the same bike in both. Entrant pay the surcharge for each.

3. MRA overall plate - great idea, if only ceremonial with a cash payout at year-end. RORO #1 plates is worn on the bike, whether won on a 600, 750, 1000.