Radical Idea

[benfoxmra95]

Zip....just put on my flame retardent suit.


Maybe we should go back to a one day sunday only race schedule. Let an outside organizer run saturday practice.

that way the MRA is only in charge of paying for the track on sunday and all the people on sunday.

We need to be proactive, given the fact that all these clubs in the us are cancelling events.

[hcr25]

In order to do this we might have to combine more classes/drop them all together and do away with the endurance classes on Saturday.

Not saying it is a good or bad idea but it would be very hard to get all of our current classes run in one day.
mike

[dirkterrell]

In order to do this we might have to combine more classes/drop them all together and do away with the endurance classes on Saturday.


If endurance is dropped, I'll find another hobby.

Dirk

[dave.gallant]

In order to do this we might have to combine more classes/drop them all together and do away with the endurance classes on Saturday.


If endurance is dropped, I'll find another hobby.

Dirk

If this gets any more expensive for me OR the club, we are all going to find a new hobby.

[PremiumBlend]

Zip....just put on my flame retardent suit.


Maybe we should go back to a one day sunday only race schedule. Let an outside organizer run saturday practice.

that way the MRA is only in charge of paying for the track on sunday and all the people on sunday.

We need to be proactive, given the fact that all these clubs in the us are cancelling events.

This idea was also brought up at the Wed night meeting @ Walnut Room. I would say 3/4 of the people in the room liked the idea.

I think practice should be from say 8-9 or 9:30 and then the endurance race after that up to lunch. Lunch from 11-12 as usual and then after that it's an open track to street riders who want to come out and play. They pay a premium with a minimal prepped bike and have a blast. Win Win!

[marty]

This idea was also brought up at the Wed night meeting @ Walnut Room. I would say 3/4 of the people in the room liked the idea.

I think practice should be from say 8-9 or 9:30 and then the endurance race after that up to lunch. Lunch from 11-12 as usual and then after that it's an open track to street riders who want to come out and play. They pay a premium with a minimal prepped bike and have a blast. Win Win!

the problem with a minimally prepped bike is if they crack a case cover and leak oil on the track. sure we can clean it up, but i don't want to be the guy who tests the track to make sure. if minimally prepped street bikes race with us, which is not a horrible idea, i would like them to be the last race on sunday

[PremiumBlend]

This idea was also brought up at the Wed night meeting @ Walnut Room. I would say 3/4 of the people in the room liked the idea.

I think practice should be from say 8-9 or 9:30 and then the endurance race after that up to lunch. Lunch from 11-12 as usual and then after that it's an open track to street riders who want to come out and play. They pay a premium with a minimal prepped bike and have a blast. Win Win!

the problem with a minimally prepped bike is if they crack a case cover and leak oil on the track. sure we can clean it up, but i don't want to be the guy who tests the track to make sure. if minimally prepped street bikes race with us, which is not a horrible idea, i would like them to be the last race on sunday

I don't know what people are so scared about if a track has been cleaned properly. Sunday at 4 pm is NOT an optimal hour for street riders to jump on the track, that would never fly. But a saturday from 12-4 would be PERFECT. The best part is you can organize a ride down to the track, all of the guys can meet up and scoot down. Make it mandatory that they show up for the lunch hour to get basic rules, eat some lunch (bonus, b/c it puts more money in the clubs pockets) have them pay $80 or something like that for a half day on the track (already have corner workers there and staff, so why not) and then have a rider "escort" them around the track. They CANNOT pass the escort rider, but I'm sure whomever it is that escorts them can make it worth their while.

Finally, if they enjoyed it and want to do it again then we can start making them do upgrades to their bike to make it more track ready. Maybe start with something fairly simple but important... maybe RayRay has some ideas on what that could be. If they keep coming back after that (they are obviously getting hooked at this point and probably getting more comfortable and faster) require them to make certain mods to their bike. If they want to run on an OPEN track with no instructor then they need to come to either a Chicane Day or the Race School.

Just ideas, but if we want to make it happen... it could happen.

[marty]

I don't know what people are so scared about if a track has been cleaned properly.

don't get me wrong, i think our crew does an awesome job cleaning up oil. however, i don't want to take the time off work for travel and racing and spend the money on bikes and race fees to wipe out first thing in the morning because of oil from someone who didn't have case covers. let alone get hurt or destroy a bike. i am from the school of thought that if you are not willing to put it in the dumpster at the end of the weekend, then you shouldn't be racing it but i don't want to throw a bike away over something as "relatively" inexpensive as case covers

i know one person who drove out of state to race in a club that didn't require case covers, and he wiped out because of a oil spot that was not cleaned up. that can be a long drive back home

trust me the first time your weekend changes because of something out of your control, it will change your opinion of "i dont see what the big deal is". at the end of the day, this isn't a "cheap" sport. i believe it can be done less expensively but bike prep and safety gear is important to not only you but whoever is on the track with you.

i am still not opposed to the idea, and i know sunday at 4 isn't the best time, but i am just trying to point out that other people's weekend can be effected by putting street bikes on the track during a race weekend

[PremiumBlend]

I don't know what people are so scared about if a track has been cleaned properly.

don't get me wrong, i think our crew does an awesome job cleaning up oil. however, i don't want to take the time off work for travel and racing and spend the money on bikes and race fees to wipe out first thing in the morning because of oil from someone who didn't have case covers. let alone get hurt or destroy a bike. i am from the school of thought that if you are not willing to put it in the dumpster at the end of the weekend, then you shouldn't be racing it but i don't want to throw a bike away over something as "relatively" inexpensive as case covers

i know one person who drove out of state to race in a club that didn't require case covers, and he wiped out because of a oil spot that was not cleaned up. that can be a long drive back home

trust me the first time your weekend changes because of something out of your control, it will change your opinion of "i dont see what the big deal is". at the end of the day, this isn't a "cheap" sport. i believe it can be done less expensively but bike prep and safety gear is important to not only you but whoever is on the track with you.

i am still not opposed to the idea, and i know sunday at 4 isn't the best time, but i am just trying to point out that other people's weekend can be effected by putting street bikes on the track during a race weekend

I can see your point, and I can respect that... but have you ever watched the crews up at Bandimere clean up a spill when the Mile High Nationals are in town? It takes about 20 - 30 minutes and then bam, back to the action. These are 3000 horsepower cars running down the track, if there is even a small slick spot left out there they will go into the wall. So in 30 minutes these guys are back in action... in the event something DID happen @ the track we still have more than 12 hours to make sure that spot is good. And for extra added protection, early in the morning before everyone gets there go out with the propane tank and a huge flame and toast the track for about 5 minutes. That will burn off any excess oil, if that happened I'll ride right over the top of that oil slick without a doubt in my mind.

EDIT: Assuming the track day for street riders was at the end of a Saturday. After all races had stopped for the day. and I meant to say this idea was only for maybe 4 rounds out of the season... not every weekend would be structure like this.

[dave.gallant]

i am still not opposed to the idea, and i know sunday at 4 isn't the best time, but i am just trying to point out that other people's weekend can be effected by putting street bikes on the track during a race weekend

I will go so far as to say I will not bother showing up if street bikes are "racing" without case covers before my race. Same for antifreeze in the radiator.

The MRA has been doing this a long time. There is a specific reason case covers are required -- and shown year after after year. Those of us who have done this forever still pucker when we are the first race after the safety dry has been dusted over the entire racing line.

[chrobis]

I've wondered for quite some why we don't, (or each track doesn't), have a trailer with a generator, a carpet shampooer, and and wet/dry shop vac. Hell, add a heat gun. I wouldn't venture a guess as to how long it would take, but wouldn't we be be able to clean up just about anything with that?

[marty]

preemie i respect that you have a positive solution to almost everything, but like dave said, just the idea of oil or oil dry is not a comforting thought. keep the ideas flowing but some of your ideas will need some flexibility also

[marty]

back to ben's initial point, i am all in favor of going back to sunday races. if we are not racing in hastings anymore, leaving the track later shouldn't be such a big deal. we can always change it back when the club and its members are back on their feet.

[Scored51]

I like this idea a lot since practice is for cheaters anyway. Cram all the racing we can do (minus endurance) into one day and the family can't complain you didn't spend the weekend with them. Priceless.

Hypo Q: Would we be at the mercy of the track management as to whether Saturday would be an open practice, or would someone like Chicane need to have it organized? I can't remember when we would run only a single day schedule who was responsible for the fun on Saturday.

[PersianThunder]

Im pro this idea. I never got the chance to run the crazy one day schedule so its just my thoughts of it but as stated, family doesnt complain that you were gone all weekend... its not so much a FULL weekend adventure (as much as i love it). If it saves money for the club then ill deal with the shit show of all the races in one day. Would definatly be one hell of a day :D

[longrider]

I can answer a lot of the facts about the way one day events were done. First I probably should introduce myself for all the new members (anybody who signed up in the last 12 years :) ) My name is Paul Donaldson, I was on the board throughout the 80s, resigned in 88 or 89, got pulled back in to a staff position a couple years later and resigned for good in 95 or 96.

With the exception of a true 6 hr endurance race, all MRA events were one day. Once or twice early in the season there would be a new rider school combined with open practice the Saturday before the race and the Streets of Steamboat would have AHRMA races on Saturday. Any other Saturday was up to the track (there were no track day organizations back then)

It was a long day, sign up and tech would open at 6, practice was 7 to 10, races ran 10 to 12, lunch 12 to 1 and racing would usually finish up around 6. The race day ran a lot quicker, first call would go out about the time the previous race started, 3rd call would be at the white flag, and the warm up lap would be sent out when the back of the cool off lap was still in turn 6 or 7. If you ran back to back races you just skipped the warm up and went straight to the grid.

I would have to dig out old records that I hope I still have somewhere, but I dont think there are more classes now then there were back then so it should still be doable

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

As much as I hate to admit it, we may have no choice but to go back to one day events next year. We would save money on insurance, track rental, and turnworker/official pay.

As Paul pointed out, Sunday would be a very long day. We still do run the races essentially the same way as he mentions. One big reason things went faster is that we raced mostly at 2nd Creek & Mt. View where the track was A LOT shorter than HPR or Pueblo (Mt. View sprints were ~10 minutes). What was also different is that we held more multi-class races as 2nd and 3rd waves. But I digress...

And Chris is right in that we should leave the Sat practices up to someone else. The tough part of that will be asking the MRA crew (turnworkers, scoring, start/finish, tech, announcing) to do all of the setup/cleanup Sunday morning before anything gets going (at 7am?). (someone will suggest sharing workers, equip, setup w/the the other org, which is possible, but has it's own set of problems... another digression..)

Any racers wanting Saturday practice would deal with whatever conditions that track or other practice org provided. Not to say Ben's idea isn't a novel one, but CCS/ASRA does this where NESBA runs the before-raceday practices. Those of you who've practiced with NESBA can chime in, but if we do that, I'm sure it'll make MRA racers appreciate the "included with entry fee" practices we have now.

What I'm not supportive of is backing off on the racer training and bike/track safety preparation the MRA currently has in place. Those of us who remember shutting down La Junta for 2 hours from a full track oil line, or the Gene/Moriah incidents don't want to re-learn the importance rider training or adequate bike preparation.

A lot of what the MRA does might look like BS or red tape to people just coming into the club, but keep in mind that it represents years of accumulated experiences and missteps. A good way to come up with new suggestions is to first understand why things are they way they are then suggest changes, not the other way around.

[Mforza]

That 6h endurance sounds good :)
Why not run 6h endurance race on Saturday for licenced and non licenced racers? That's how they do it in Europe. They run all classes at the same time.
That way it will bring more people to the track and will be more interesting then reg. trackday.
And you will get your practice :)
Just an idea.

[Mforza]

Little more about the endurance.
Teams (3 riders)
Do short practice in the morning
the do qualifier (each team sends out 1 rider)
then start the race from 12-6.
Very popular in Europe. I think they have about 50-60 teams every race.
And that's just in Czech.
It atracts a lot of people that are not sure if they want to race or not.
And it will create more income for the club.

[dave.gallant]

We tried real endurance racing with the MRA in recent years. It was great fun.

Unfortunately, not enough people were interested to do it on a regular basis. :(

[oldtimer]

What I'm not supportive of is backing off on the racer training and bike/track safety preparation the MRA currently has in place. Those of us who remember shutting down La Junta for 2 hours from a full track oil line, or the Gene/Moriah incidents don't want to re-learn the importance rider training or adequate bike preparation.

A lot of what the MRA does might look like BS or red tape to people just coming into the club, but keep in mind that it represents years of accumulated experiences and missteps. A good way to come up with new suggestions is to first understand why things are they way they are then suggest changes, not the other way around.

Agreed. I'm all for getting creative but I'm concerned the club is going down the wrong path out of deperation. I'm not racing with non-licensed un-prepped riders, I'm concerned about both their safety and mine.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

That 6h endurance sounds good :)
Why not run 6h endurance race on Saturday for licenced and non licenced racers?
We tried a 3 hour enduro a few years ago and 4 teams showed up. That was in much better economic times.

[longrider]

Martin, the only problem I see there is it could hurt turnout on Sunday. If a sprint racer wanted to try endurance the odds of racing sprints the next day are near zero. Your bike is tired, you are tired, etc.

[Mforza]

Well, that was just an idea :)
I do not see too much diferance between practce and the endurance.
During the race every rider from the team will do about 4 x 30min sesions.

[dave.gallant]

Martin, the only problem I see there is it could hurt turnout on Sunday. If a sprint racer wanted to try endurance the odds of racing sprints the next day are near zero. Your bike is tired, you are tired, etc.

Saturday endurance (real endurance), Sunday sprints is the formula WERA has been using successfully for many years now.

[Mforza]

And in endurance you race for the team so you are trying to make sure not to crash that your team can finish the race. So I think it's safer :)
You can do it as a separate championship :D
Maybe with cooperation MRA/Chicane if that will work?

[racedk6]

What I'm not supportive of is backing off on the racer training and bike/track safety preparation the MRA currently has in place. Those of us who remember shutting down La Junta for 2 hours from a full track oil line, or the Gene/Moriah incidents don't want to re-learn the importance rider training or adequate bike preparation.

A lot of what the MRA does might look like BS or red tape to people just coming into the club, but keep in mind that it represents years of accumulated experiences and missteps. A good way to come up with new suggestions is to first understand why things are they way they are then suggest changes, not the other way around.

Agreed. I'm all for getting creative but I'm concerned the club is going down the wrong path out of deperation. I'm not racing with non-licensed un-prepped riders, I'm concerned about both their safety and mine.


I agree we CAN NOT compromise the safety of riders or the track conditions more then what we already do.

Motorcycle racing is an expensive and dangerous sport no matter what way you look at it hands down. Instead of risking and liability issues that may involve the MRA insurance by letting un-prepped bikes on the track, and untrained riders, we can get something rolling where Chicane Trackdays can do some mock races of the street guys. That can offer street riders a chance to be in a race competitive situation.

[Scored51]

Not to derail the direction this thread is headed, but remembrance of how Saturday was run reminded me that whether Saturday endurance or sprints were run, Saturday morning practice was a separate charge of $50 for all racers. Once the change was made to include it with race registrations, the remainder of the race registrations did not increase in price. Therefore a modest guess with an average of 100 riders means the club has surrendered $25,000 in revenue for the first half of the season alone.

I doubt too many people would vote to reinstate the additional charge. However, it does point to the fact that the club still carries all of the costs associated with running a second day on a race weekend while losing out on a lot of the revenue that used to be generated. Maybe a board discussion could also investigate the possibility of restructuring the pricing of our races to more evenly distribute the costs vs. revenue. Meaning someone who signs up for an endurance race pays $50 and practices all Saturday morning. Then he/she gets a specific 15 minute practice for the race, and finally races a 30 minute race. Conversly, someone only riding a sprint on Sunday receives 2 practice sessions and a seven lap race that is approximately 12 minutes long for $160.

I fear that if everyone riding, or not riding, had figured this out we may have bankrupted the club simply by giving the farm away. Even single day bicycle race registrations are significantly more than it costs to run an endurance race with the MRA! So what about the idea of keeping the Saturday of our events, but whatever we use it for (race, practice, or both) it generates the income to remain a somewhat profitable venture?

[dave.gallant]

Chris --

Keep in mind we can make money racing sprint races to offset the additional fees associated with that sprint race. There is less "competition" to make manufacturer money in the endurance races, therefore it would become less and less interesting to many of us if the price for it would drastically increase.

[Scored51]

Understood completely. And the answer may be to keep the endurance as is for club fund raising efforts like the original air fences. If we removed that example from this discussion, the club is still generating less income. The pricing schedule that was developed to cover the costs of a single day event has now been spread over two days. So if I race a sprint on Saturday I pay my $160. Then Sunday I race a second sprint, but instead of it costing $160 (as was the original design) it only costs me $40. The club still gets my $200 for racing two races, but the costs have doubled because it happens over two days.

Now it may not be all that fair to charge someone who only races middleweight supersport and middleweight superbike $320 just because his/her races are scheduled on different days. However, if the pricing is based on factors of costs, number of entrants, and a small profit margin I'm sure we'll need to reclaim the $120 difference per rider to maintain a two day event schedule.

[froth]

Jim. There were FIVE teams. I know, mine came in fifth! :lol:

[cromer611]

do u guys realize how many wrenchs/salesman/parts guys that cant come on saturday? moving races to sunday and combining/eliminating some classes would not only be cheaper for the club, but alot of riders in the motorcycle industry would be able to race ... say .... novice classes for once.

[PremiumBlend]

do u guys realize how many wrenchs/salesman/parts guys that cant come on saturday? moving races to sunday and combining/eliminating some classes would not only be cheaper for the club, but alot of riders in the motorcycle industry would be able to race ... say .... novice classes for once.

Or guys like me in the paving industry where a 5 day work week just doesn't cut it during the summer... our work schedule is from Monday - Saturday. Sunday is a maybe. :)

[PremiumBlend]

A lot of what the MRA does might look like BS or red tape to people just coming into the club, but keep in mind that it represents years of accumulated experiences and missteps. A good way to come up with new suggestions is to first understand why things are they way they are then suggest changes, not the other way around.

I know I say there is a lot of Red Tape around here but I think when I say it, it is justifiable. Why? I think there are a lot of rules and guidelines from years before that were mismanaged. I think the board, now, is one of the best and can/will pull this club out of it's "recession". You guys make sound decisions that I know is with the clubs best intentions in mind. And I understand that I need to learn more about the club and why things are the way they are, but honestly... I think it's time for a change and people seem to agree. The problem with our current situation is we have to many of these " - " in the equation, and we need more of these " + " especially in the financial department. I, by no means am saying we should take unnecessary risks that will jeopardize this organization, but there are areas where potential profits are being lost due to restraints within our current guidelines that "could" be re-evaluated.

[marty]

I know I say there is a lot of Red Tape around here but I think when I say it, it is justifiable. Why? I think there are a lot of rules and guidelines from years before that were mismanaged. I think the board, now, is one of the best and has can pull this club out of it's "recession". You guys make sound decisions that I know is with the clubs best intentions in mind. And I understand that I need to learn more about the club and why things are the way they are, but honestly... I think it's time for a change and people seem to agree. The problem with our current situation is we have to many of these " - " in the equation, and we need more of these " + " especially in the financial department. I, by no means am saying we should take unnecessary risks that will jeopardize this organization, but there are areas where potential profits are being lost due to restraints within our current guidelines that "could" be re-evaluated.
i bet i know who you voted for in the last presidential election :lol:










sorry to go political, but i've been huffing brake clean all weekend long and i should not be held accountable for any of my own actions or comments

[PremiumBlend]

i bet i know who you voted for in the last presidential election :lol:


sorry to go political, but i've been huffing brake clean all weekend long and i should not be held accountable for any of my own actions or comments

HAHA.. no worries, I get that way as well after working on my stuff.

And I didn't vote, couldn't justify putting it on paper for either one of them.

[JWinter]

I have talked over the weekend to several friends of mine who I have tried to get on the race track; all of them do not want to race prep their street bikes to our standards, but all said they would come to the track and do a track day event sponsored by the MRA.

So....what do I considered a minimum prep for a street bike. Case guards, taped off lights, steering dampener, and water only in radiators. If HPR allows these bikes on the track in these conditions during the week why not allow them during the race weekend?

I am in favor of the Sunday only sprints, I missed out on a lot of racing this season due to working on Saturdays. We can run two Saturday morning practice sessions and then do Lightweight/middleweight endurance before lunch and Heavy/open endurance after lunch. Then do something with street riders in the afternoon. This will allow the street riders to get more educated about the MRA and about the bikes they ride themselves.Again my point is that street riders need to get more involved with our club!! The street guys buy all the silly stuff for their bikes that our vendors make money on!

For insurance requirements all street riders wanting to participate need to be AMA members, complete a race school, have a current membership to the club and do the minimum track prep like: taped off lights, no anti-freeze, case guards, steering dampener, and all the proper gear per our rule book (helmet, boots, and etc.). These street riders would still be held accountable per our rule book when it comes to conduct and any other issues.

If we charged $80 bucks for a few hours of structured riding for these street guys we could have good turnout. This street class could possibly bring in more money than our current endurance schedule.

As a racer I do agree with the oil on the track issues and that is why I suggested doing the street stuff after we are off the track with the endurance classes. This will give plenty of time to clean up if we have a spill. Again I want to require case guards for these street bikes.

I don't want to change what we are doing, but it seems unavoidable at this point.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

I know I say there is a lot of Red Tape around here but I think when I say it, it is justifiable. Why? I think there are a lot of rules and guidelines from years before that were mismanaged. I think the board, now, is one of the best and can/will pull this club out of it's "recession". You guys make sound decisions that I know is with the clubs best intentions in mind. And I understand that I need to learn more about the club and why things are the way they are, but honestly... I think it's time for a change and people seem to agree. The problem with our current situation is we have to many of these " - " in the equation, and we need more of these " + " especially in the financial department. I, by no means am saying we should take unnecessary risks that will jeopardize this organization, but there are areas where potential profits are being lost due to restraints within our current guidelines that "could" be re-evaluated.
Premie - I agree that we need to adjust some of what we're doing since personally I don't think we're in an "economic storm" that we need to get through - but we're in a new financial reality. We need to size the MRA to that reality (the company I work for has already done this quite drastically).

My concern is there can be good change and bad change. People are full of piss-n-vinegar right now 'cause of the cancelled races, bad finances, and the rally of the troops to "Save the Club!!". What's going to be needed is sustained, focused work & headstrong persistence in getting us back in black. I'd hate to see the energy people have for the club wasted by changing things just for the sake of changing and not resulting in improvements.

At work, we call that "motion being mistaken for progress". It's a quick way to demoralize people and we *really* can't afford that.

So, rather than rambling, "we" (or I) need to summarize the ideas here and evaluate/estimate each one as to financial, legal, racer, sponsor, MRA worker, and spectator impact. Then we could rate each one on it's effectivness on what we're trying to achieve and go after the highest valued ones. (for those still following me, I'm suggesting doing sort of a Paredo analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) on these ideas).

Comments?

[benfoxmra95]

looks like jim wants to be part of the "A" team




uhhh.....it's pareto.......not peredo....nerd....

[benfoxmra95]

BTW, I'll see your pereto and raise you a charrette. That's more of what I had in mind. Once the charrette is done then the data derived from it can be then used in the pareto method.

[froth]

Alright, I had to look them up. I actually got good grades in my economics classes, but never heard of these. Pretty interesting stuff, 'specially depending on which side of "K" you fall.

[rybo]

I know I say there is a lot of Red Tape around here but I think when I say it, it is justifiable. Why? I think there are a lot of rules and guidelines from years before that were mismanaged. I think the board, now, is one of the best and can/will pull this club out of it's "recession". You guys make sound decisions that I know is with the clubs best intentions in mind. And I understand that I need to learn more about the club and why things are the way they are, but honestly... I think it's time for a change and people seem to agree. The problem with our current situation is we have to many of these " - " in the equation, and we need more of these " + " especially in the financial department. I, by no means am saying we should take unnecessary risks that will jeopardize this organization, but there are areas where potential profits are being lost due to restraints within our current guidelines that "could" be re-evaluated.
Premie - I agree that we need to adjust some of what we're doing since personally I don't think we're in an "economic storm" that we need to get through - but we're in a new financial reality. We need to size the MRA to that reality (the company I work for has already done this quite drastically).

My concern is there can be good change and bad change. People are full of piss-n-vinegar right now 'cause of the cancelled races, bad finances, and the rally of the troops to "Save the Club!!". What's going to be needed is sustained, focused work & headstrong persistence in getting us back in black. I'd hate to see the energy people have for the club wasted by changing things just for the sake of changing and not resulting in improvements.

At work, we call that "motion being mistaken for progress". It's a quick way to demoralize people and we *really* can't afford that.

So, rather than rambling, "we" (or I) need to summarize the ideas here and evaluate/estimate each one as to financial, legal, racer, sponsor, MRA worker, and spectator impact. Then we could rate each one on it's effectivness on what we're trying to achieve and go after the highest valued ones. (for those still following me, I'm suggesting doing sort of a Paredo analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) on these ideas).

Comments?

BRAVO JIM!

I've been relatively silent in this discussion so far, mostly because there are a lot of ideas out there.

There is a lot of danger in making radical "changes" in times of stress. We all hear that you shouldn't drive when angry (or emotional) and I think a lot of the same logic applies here. We (the club) should not make changes in desperation.

There are a lot of reasonable suggestions in this thread and I think evaluating them in isolation is probably a good start. Take each recommendation and analyze it based on it's own merits.

One of the suggestions that keeps coming up is some kind of partnership with Chicane. I'd like to see that option further explored as I think a win win situation can develop out of it, but also don't want to push my organization on the MRA. As such as we evaluate that option let's consider that there are others who may be interested in offering the promotor practice that's being suggested in multiple posts.

Also, there is a lot of suggestion of allowing Chicane trained riders to do some racing. I'll say a lot of good things about what we are doing with training, but we are NOT training racers at my trackdays. I think to send them out onto the grid with 30 of their closest friends and have them do a standing start into T1 would be a bad idea, and invites people to get hurt. That is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. The purpose of my organization is to run fun, safe, non-competitive events and I plan to keep it that way. If the MRA was interested in letting an outside organization run a trackday that could be used as practice leading up to an event I would be interested and would change my daily schedule to accommodate that use, but I won't be running races at my events, it's not what we do.

I want to be a part of the solution to the current MRA situation and believe that careful consideration of a radical change is necessary. The club has been in worse positions, when I joined in 2002 there was a crisis that easily rivaled our current situation and may have even been worse. I know that we have the ability to solve this problem, but don't think that making radical changes RIGHT NOW is the real solution.

In the meantime I suggest that we start an evaluation of each suggestion so far in the way that Jim suggests. It's tedious and hard, but it's the only way to make a good choice.

More from me later

Scott

[T Baggins]

Killjoy here... just bringing the facts.

We may or may not be able to rent the tracks for "one weekend day only"

Typically they only do track rentals on weekends for BOTH days. Maybe with the economy sucking they would reconsider?

We would need to look at the "hard costs" to see how much it would really save to cut it to one day. Yes, there will be savings - but would it be enough to justify cramming the raceday into a Sunday again?

We pull in about $3500 per weekend on endurance entries. If we go to a Sunday only schedule, kiss that $ goodbye.

I'm just saying... before you get all excited about an idea, you need to look at the "reality side" before you run very far.

Honestly I think the best way to get people involved and increase new riders would be to do a "SuperStreet Class" on Saturday afternoons. Bring in newbies, and get 'em hooked!

[Jon]

I'm of the thought that the reason we've had to cancel the PPIR rounds is that much like in the past when everyone raised there hands wanting the real endurance race and then neglected to signup was much the same as the enthusiasm shown for the 11 race season. When reality set in and finances were looked at people faced the cold hard reality that they couldn't afford it.
Regardless, yes racing ain't cheap and yes some of us throw what we can afford to do it and being older and somewhat sucessful at what I do I throw more than many.
I've been of the thought that a spec class using SV 650's with minimum mods allowed would create a affordable class where talent would rule. Yet what we've seen here is everyone starting out on 600's, crashing and not being able to afford to fix it or being hurt (how many have quit this year alone for that reason?) because they were caught out by the power of the newer 600's.
In my opinion and others who have raced almost through half the pack in Endurance is that a SV, EX or another lightweight bike is every bit as fun as a 600 as long as your racing. It teaches to have higher corner speeds, brake later and get the most of the power available and to turn towards the chassis and suspension for quicker laptimes not the throttle.

[benfoxmra95]

Killjoy here... just bringing the facts.

We may or may not be able to rent the tracks for "one weekend day only"

Typically they only do track rentals on weekends for BOTH days. Maybe with the economy sucking they would reconsider?

We would need to look at the "hard costs" to see how much it would really save to cut it to one day. Yes, there will be savings - but would it be enough to justify cramming the raceday into a Sunday again?

We pull in about $3500 per weekend on endurance entries. If we go to a Sunday only schedule, kiss that $ goodbye.

I'm just saying... before you get all excited about an idea, you need to look at the "reality side" before you run very far.

Honestly I think the best way to get people involved and increase new riders would be to do a "SuperStreet Class" on Saturday afternoons. Bring in newbies, and get 'em hooked!


well forget it then. can we at least change the background colors of the Forum for awhile? maybe dark blue with white lettering? or black? damnit i want something to change.

[froth]

I vote for Fleshtone and Ultra Marine.

Actually, I second Jon's opinion on the "Mighty SV,"(credit to Moham here). When I went from a 600 I-4 to the SV, I got faster than the 600 the first time out. Easier cornering, or someting. Less tire wear, MUCH less expensive overall.
I bought the bike fully race prepped(stock carbs, but a full exhaust system), including, very nice paint, with minimum, I mean minimum camage from an easy low side. Including shipping of $480, it came to $2980 for a fully ready to go race bike. Yes, Shanon M. rides one, and crushes me on it regularly, but that's mostly due to the fact that HE RACES BETTER than I do. The fun factor is still there, but the dollar$ factor is a bit mitigated bye less money for the machinery in both parts and aquisition (and, you can have Zohan, or a half dozen others build you a midway monster motor, take a peek at Chuck's sano macine....sexy!).

Heck, you can even run in STO, and see what the big twins can do (believe me, it's a LOT! Getting zapped by these guys while learning is FUN, and all they are trying to do after they pass you is show you a better race line, anyhow).

Should anyone want to ride the twins and learn for less, just contact Mark S. about running your yellow tag in STU and STO, LWGP, and endurance is open to all. Mark gave me permission, and a couple pointers, and off I went.

Very good point Jon, thanks for bringing it up.

[benfoxmra95]

we've digress here from the topic of one day schedule.

Oh well.

If were on the topic of it, then I'll give me opinion, the thought of racing sv's and small kawi's does not interest me in the least. That's just me.

What does interest me is racing a "stock" off the the showroom floor bike that I do not have to spend a crapload of money on it. Like bodywork and a steering dampner. that's it's I mean nothing else...case covers, but nothing beyond that, no race fuel, no exhaust, not a damn thing. You want a cheap class for streetbike people then this is it.

Well what about the street rider who's already got a exhaust, well take it back off, there's dozens of stock exhaust systems that go for $50 on the interenet. it's not hard to find a full stock exhaust system. and when you crash it, it's even cheaper to repair, you could buy 3 stock exhaust systems on ebay and stack them in your trailer for $100's less than aftermarket. chances are you'll only need to replace it once. same with rear sets. and clip ons. the stock stuff is perfectly good to race on you just need to get used to it.

Spec racing doesnt have to be small low powered machines.

A completely stock spec class for 600's or 1000's draws my attention because I want to ride the same bike I see ben bostrom riding or ben spies.

[dave.gallant]

I won't go into how much fun SV's are. And, for you "new" guys, I have literally raced most every type of bike over the years now except a Rotax. And, SVs can be made to go pretty quick!

That said, racing STGTU on one is a complete waste of time if you actually want to be competitive.

If there were a class similar to WERA LWTwins within 500 miles of driving, I would have done just that years ago. I bet Shannon and Applehans and <insert the many SV racers over the years> would have done it as well as they are just that much fun.

( Especially when you keep the motors somewhat stock and they last more than a few weekends. Right Shannon? :shock: )

[dave_g]

well forget it then. can we at least change the background colors of the Forum for awhile? maybe dark blue with white lettering? or black? damnit i want something to change.

Changed.

Don't ever say we don't love you!

[benfoxmra95]

Killjoy here... just bringing the facts.

We may or may not be able to rent the tracks for "one weekend day only"

Typically they only do track rentals on weekends for BOTH days. Maybe with the economy sucking they would reconsider?

We would need to look at the "hard costs" to see how much it would really save to cut it to one day. Yes, there will be savings - but would it be enough to justify cramming the raceday into a Sunday again?

We pull in about $3500 per weekend on endurance entries. If we go to a Sunday only schedule, kiss that $ goodbye.

I'm just saying... before you get all excited about an idea, you need to look at the "reality side" before you run very far.

Honestly I think the best way to get people involved and increase new riders would be to do a "SuperStreet Class" on Saturday afternoons. Bring in newbies, and get 'em hooked!


well forget it then. can we at least change the background colors of the Forum for awhile? maybe dark blue with white lettering? or black? damnit i want something to change.


lol i guess its black for a little while....ask and you shall receive

[longrider]

I have been following this and the best point I have seen in the whole discussion is:



... personally I don't think we're in an "economic storm" that we need to get through - but we're in a new financial reality. We need to size the MRA to that reality (the company I work for has already done this quite drastically).



Unfortunately there are not a lot of costs you have control over, the board has already adjusted what they can - pay (less staff, pay cuts for the board) and reduce prize payout. Nothing else is really controllable under the current race weekend format.

Under the current setup we need 120+ racers at a weekend to break even. One idea I have not seen brought up is to cut the season to maybe 7 races with 3 weeks between the races. This gives racers a better shot at making every weekend, not just choosing which ones you can afford. Having 3 weeks between races makes it easier on the family life, plus you have more time to fix if needed.

I really like the idea of going to a 1 day event, with the fact Tony gave of you have to rent the facility for the weekend I could see the possibility of working together with Chicane. Scott would run Saturday as a normal Chicane day, no ideas of turning his people into racers but he could benefit from racers who want more practice signing up for his event. Aside from splitting the track rental, the MRA would save by having one day of insurance, ambulance and corner workers. There also could be more entries from people who can only race Sunday.

Analyzing that change - reduced costs, increased revenue from sprint signups and reduced revenue from cancelling endurance brings me to my final point. All this discussion and idea input is very valuable but in the end that is what you elect a board for. Analyze the situation and make the appropriate decisions.

[T Baggins]

Not taking anything away from Scott and Chicane (or any other track day entity), but "IF" the Saturday could be run at a profit (either as a raceday or a practice day) why would the MRA let an outside entity control that day? The idea here is to MAKE money...

[longrider]

Not taking anything away from Scott and Chicane (or any other track day entity), but "IF" the Saturday could be run at a profit (either as a raceday or a practice day) why would the MRA let an outside entity control that day? The idea here is to MAKE money...

Can the MRA run a track day under track day rules? If it is a MRA practice day you wont get anywhere near the turnout that a track day with sessions for everyone from racers to canyon carvers would. I am using the assumption that running Saturday as a race day would not be profitable

[chris nami]

in the last few days i have been trying to keep up with all the different discussions about what to do with the club and how to fix the money problems. i think its actually simple economics. Ben, Dave, Glenn, Tony, my lovely wife...have all made very good points and i think its as easy as shortening the season a bit, and here is my reasons...

for the Fullers it runs us an average of $1000 a race weekend. now people can say all they want about how we are spending to much but i know plenty of racers who spend far more and plenty of them who spend less so i feel i am somewhere in the middle.

now, if we run an 11 race event season that adds up to 11,000 a year...HOLY SHIZLE, that's a new bike every year or a car or..? if we simply decrease the amount of races to say 7 that's a lot of money ($4,000) and more time in between races that could help a lot of racers decide to race a full season or not. to me this would mean bigger turnouts and more money to cover each event.

So if i have to pick or if i only have the budget to run a hand full of races i am going to skip a few so i can ride when it works best for me. i would guess a lot of racers feel the same. thats why you see tracks like pueblo dead, cuz who wants to ride a toilet bowl when they can ride a work of art like hpr.

to respond to Sexy Bens post, i guess i don't think changing the race day schedule will do anything but piss more people off and i think the club should stay away from joining forces with another group. i don't want to have to pay, sign up,bla bla bla with another group. what a pain in the ass. also the club should keep that money in the club.

we all take pride in the club and the members are like family to me, so naturally i want the club to do well.

[chris nami]

i agree with been about stock bike racing.

[T Baggins]

We can run a "practice day" any way we want, so long as all participants are MRA and AMA members. We could incorporate the "one day membership fee" into the cost of the trackday ($150 total, of which $50 goes towards the one day membership...) - just thinking out loud.

The bigger issue here, though, is

1) Would moving all races back to Sunday INCREASE participation or decrease participation of our current riders - and would the assumed increase in participation from XX mystery riders outweigh the decrease above? It would increase the # of back-to-back races at a minimum - and would require guys who run SS and SB to either have two sets of wheels or bust tires all day.

2) Would we have a greater income from a track day than from Endurance and racing?

I think setting a realistic schedule with 7-8 races instead of 10-11 and coming up with something to increase outside participation (again, SuperStreet on Saturday afternoon???) to get people hooked.

[gixxermike]

lol i guess its black for a little while....ask and you shall receive

Once again Ben comes up with another great idea...

Love the black Dave gives it a nice dark kind of feeling, when this is all figured out and settled can you do a sky blue? :lol:

BTW Dave why are you in a cast again?

[hcr25]

where the hell is the neon orange?

[dave.gallant]

where the hell is the neon orange?

That would be more suiting for you and I, wouldn't it?? :)

[gixxermike]

where the hell is the neon orange?

That works too

[dave.gallant]

BTW Dave why are you in a cast again?

I am an idiot.

8)

[gixxermike]

I am an idiot.

At least tell me it happened outside the trailer

[benfoxmra95]

Not taking anything away from Scott and Chicane (or any other track day entity), but "IF" the Saturday could be run at a profit (either as a raceday or a practice day) why would the MRA let an outside entity control that day? The idea here is to MAKE money...


sigh....just think about some of the years probably not too many that the club tried to spend down the bank account to get it to zero for tax purposes.

It has always been in the back of my mind that the club should be a business run for profit. but that's another discussion, please leave this one alone.


I do feel as though going back to a one day schedule will increase membership entrys as I have heard many people complaining about not being able to ride on sat because they worked somewhere.

I was reticent of this and thought that maybe it was just a few whiners crying about the pains of a two day schedule, but at the first race we had at HPR I was walking around the pits and anonymously was listening (eavesdropping...haha) on a group of people who really didn't know me and their main complaint about the MRA they were discussing was the fact that they and other friends of thiers couldn't race on saturdays. I honestly had no clue who this group was as i had never met them.

So it really put things to light for me that it just wasn't the same old people whining about the schedule, this was a whole other group unrelated.




P.s. Im not 100% on the black background, and baby blue foreground yet. can the foreground colors change? what about orange background, red forground? or maybe dark blue foreground orange background?

[elvis8310@hotmail.com]

we've digress here from the topic of one day schedule.

Oh well.

If were on the topic of it, then I'll give me opinion, the thought of racing sv's and small kawi's does not interest me in the least. That's just me.

What does interest me is racing a "stock" off the the showroom floor bike that I do not have to spend a crapload of money on it. Like bodywork and a steering dampner. that's it's I mean nothing else...case covers, but nothing beyond that, no race fuel, no exhaust, not a damn thing. You want a cheap class for streetbike people then this is it.

Well what about the street rider who's already got a exhaust, well take it back off, there's dozens of stock exhaust systems that go for $50 on the interenet. it's not hard to find a full stock exhaust system. and when you crash it, it's even cheaper to repair, you could buy 3 stock exhaust systems on ebay and stack them in your trailer for $100's less than aftermarket. chances are you'll only need to replace it once. same with rear sets. and clip ons. the stock stuff is perfectly good to race on you just need to get used to it.

Spec racing doesnt have to be small low powered machines.

A completely stock spec class for 600's or 1000's draws my attention because I want to ride the same bike I see ben bostrom riding or ben spies.

I raced spec classes in Europe that limited what was done to the bike. We were only allowed to modify forks internals, shock, exhaust and powercommanders(or jetting). We ran stock airfilter, airbox, brakes rotors, engines and body work(you could buy racing fairing but not required). WE did not safety wire the bikes, had HP levels. We ran case guards not covers. So you could take your street bike tape it up and race with very little money unless you wanted the parts and still had alot of fun. These classes had the biggest turn out and brought in most of the fans to watch there street riding friends race it up. I know it worked over there and could here if looked at right.

Just my 2 cents

[JWinter]

I am in favor of the street bike class for sure, the only issue I see with it is scoring for an actual race. Chris Dale could shed more light on this subject than me but how do we run a street race series when the bikes don't have number plates? Or these street bikes would all need transponders to score them. We would have to require these riders to buy transponders upfront. IF we do the street bike idea it would be very difficult to set it up as an actual championship with points, trophies, and contingency, etc. Instead it would have to be set up as a structured non-competitive track day.

I don't think we make the street bike class into a trophy class; if these riders want to be involved in trophies and championships they need to prep a race bike, get a number and join the novice ranks.

I agree with Brewer about scaling back a little. I know that scheduling events are harder than just wishing it but, two rounds at Pueblo, five at HPR and the possibility of one round at PPIR would be a great season. Of course we can't guarantee two weeks between each event but an eight or seven round season would be better.

Lastly the financial part of my post: If we run our two day schedule as is we would not be able to add the street bike class(s). But if we move the novice classes and Ltwt GP to Sunday that should make enough room to add the street bike class(s) after endurance maybe around 2:00 in the afternoon. If we charge $80 per class (I assume we break it up into gtu and gto bikes) for a half hour session each class and go $100 for someone who can run both classes. If we get twenty bikes per class we could get an additional $3,200 in income on Saturday. Plus the street guys would have to be AMA members, Pay for a current MRA license, and pay for the MRA school.

Jeff

[zedx6rroadracer]

I will chime in and im a nobody, however, I will say that as an individual who enjoys motorcycle racing more than anyone and has a genuine interest in racing a schedule that has been presented would be ideal. This is how it would benefit me. I manage a business that is open 7 days a week and as such it takes a majority of my time. I unfortunately cannot dedicate a Friday afternoon to Sunday evening to race. I would imagine this is the same for many others. Especially now with the economy in the state it is in. I like others will work as needed. Now if we had say the endurance races on Saturday with a street class ads all the sprints on Sunday, I personnaly would sign up and race. It is much easier to take one day odd on a weekend and Saturdays are not an option on a regular basis. Unfortunatelly as it stands now my life and my mortgage precede my hobbies, however, if its a one day thing where I feel I can manage to become competitive, I am all for it. Sign me up right now.

[racedk6]

I raced spec classes in Europe that limited what was done to the bike. We were only allowed to modify forks internals, shock, exhaust and powercommanders(or jetting). We ran stock airfilter, airbox, brakes rotors, engines and body work(you could buy racing fairing but not required). WE did not safety wire the bikes, had HP levels. We ran case guards not covers. So you could take your street bike tape it up and race with very little money unless you wanted the parts and still had alot of fun. These classes had the biggest turn out and brought in most of the fans to watch there street riding friends race it up. I know it worked over there and could here if looked at right.

Just my 2 cents

Not safety wiring a bike is a horrible idea and a good way to get somebody hurt because of someone elses "oops" moment.

[PremiumBlend]

Not safety wiring a bike is a horrible idea and a good way to get somebody hurt because of someone elses "oops" moment.

I agree that street bikes should NOT "race". My idea is getting them out there so they can simply be out on the track doing some parade laps with an escort. Not safety wiring a bike IS a horrible idea if you intend to race, but safety wiring a bike just to putz around on the track is not necessary at all!!!!!

Figuring out how to get street bikes on the track on Saturday after the morning races would be key to getting new entries.

[elvis8310@hotmail.com]

Well, in the European leagues(IDM,BMSB and so on) safty wire is not required at all. I have raced from Italy to Holland and they do not use it at all. We as racers in Europe checked and rechecked our bikes and not once did any of my 7 team members have an issue. I know in America everything has to be wired but the only real bolts needed are the oil drain bolt, oil filter, oil filler and radiator cap. This is just my view from racing were they do things different and have a street class that works well and makes alot of money.

[Mforza]

Well, in the European leagues(IDM,BMSB and so on) safty wire is not required at all. I have raced from Italy to Holland and they do not use it at all. We as racers in Europe checked and rechecked our bikes and not once did any of my 7 team members have an issue. I know in America everything has to be wired but the only real bolts needed are the oil drain bolt, oil filter, oil filler and radiator cap. This is just my view from racing were they do things different and have a street class that works well and makes alot of money.

That's right. +1 for Elvis