effen cheatin suzukis!

[benfoxmra95]

mladin.....pffft....well now I know what it takes to win some races. A cheater crank.

WTF!!! Unless that crank had about 2 inches of extra stroke, who the eff cares what's been done to it? Really?

Who knows, maybe theyll reveal what was illegal about it.. But I doubght it was anything substantial.

Weed....have you been secretly hanging out with jim rashid? J/k... :)

[TBSgraphics]

so how is it only Mladin, what about ben???

[benfoxmra95]

I gotta say one thing though, they should have known better, I mean come on everyone has been getting their shit looked at this year, did they think they were untouchable.

Oh btw, all you Suzuki riders in supersport better watch out at the next pueblo, I'm bringing a stack of cash for some teardowns....I want to see your cranks.....


(brewer...dont do it....!)

[TBSgraphics]

so how is it only Mladin, what about ben???

Never mind, saw that AMA only looked at Mat's equipment, and it's ok to cheat as long as your second and dont win.

Dont beleive for a second that who ever built the motors didnt do the same treatment on both cranks, but ben(or ben's crewcheif) will get away with this one.

Why after so many years of factory prefferenal(sp) Treatment is tha AMA cracking down on tech???

Started at Daytona with the hondas now this??

[The GECCO]

(I'll do it)

Bring the big stack! The ladies get comped but if YOU wanna see my crank it's gonna cost ya!

[JimWilson29]

so how is it only Mladin, what about ben???

Never mind, saw that AMA only looked at Mat's equipment, and it's ok to cheat as long as your second and dont win.

Dont beleive for a second that who ever built the motors didnt do the same treatment on both cranks, but ben(or ben's crewcheif) will get away with this one.

Why after so many years of factory prefferenal(sp) Treatment is tha AMA cracking down on tech???

Started at Daytona with the hondas now this??


Frank you cant tell me you havent been paying attention to all the manufactuers vs DMG drama lately. Mat and Mel Harris have openly spoke out about Roger Edmondsen. They must have really pissed him off! :lol: I wouldnt doubt if Suzuki pulls out the rest of this season. Spies 551 points clinches the champioship now anyway.

[The GECCO]

So I guess congratulations are in order for Spies, this essentially hands him the championship. I haven't done the math, but I think that he'll clinch it with a solid finish in the first round at Road Atlanta. The second round at RA and the race at Laguna won't matter.

[JimWilson29]

mladin.....pffft....well now I know what it takes to win some races. A cheater crank.

WTF!!! Unless that crank had about 2 inches of extra stroke, who the eff cares what's been done to it? Really?

Who knows, maybe theyll reveal what was illegal about it.. But I doubght it was anything substantial.


What if it was something more like Mat's crank weighed more than the sample that Suzuki sent to compare it against. Would that give him any advantage? :?:

[JimWilson29]

So I guess congratulations are in order for Spies, this essentially hands him the championship. I haven't done the math, but I think that he'll clinch it with a solid finish in the first round at Road Atlanta. The second round at RA and the race at Laguna won't matter.

From official results after the DQ-

Spies 551
Mladin 449
Hacking 403

[benfoxmra95]

mladin.....pffft....well now I know what it takes to win some races. A cheater crank.

WTF!!! Unless that crank had about 2 inches of extra stroke, who the eff cares what's been done to it? Really?

Who knows, maybe theyll reveal what was illegal about it.. But I doubght it was anything substantial.


What if it was something more like Mat's crank weighed more than the sample that Suzuki sent to compare it against. Would that give him any advantage? :?:

A heavier crank will have no hp advantage at all....what it will have is more tractable power delivery(ie. less likely to spin up), it will also make the bike harder to turn, because of increased gyro effect from a heavier mass.

so take your pick a light crank that spins up fast and will smoke the rear tire and is easy to turn. or a heavy crank that's less likely to spin the rear tire, but is harder to turn.

it's a trade off in certain aspects. You could change the bike geometry to make the bike turn easier to compensate for the heavier crank, but in doing so you'll make the rear end lighter and easier to come around on you.

If your using the lighter crank that flicks easier and smokes the tire, you could drop the back end of the bike for more traction, but you'll slow the steering down and make it require more effort to get the bike in the corner.

If he's getting his season ruined for that...it's a shame...now if he was running a 1200cc stroker crank...then i'd look at it a different way.

[benfoxmra95]

look at what those cheating suzuki's used to do back in the 750cc, superbike days...

Clark shuold know what's wrong with this picture:

http://www.foxperformanceengines.com/flywheel.jpg

[dave.gallant]

There is nothing "wrong" with that picture.

That is the RIGHT way to do it!!

[The GECCO]

So I guess congratulations are in order for Spies, this essentially hands him the championship. I haven't done the math, but I think that he'll clinch it with a solid finish in the first round at Road Atlanta. The second round at RA and the race at Laguna won't matter.

From official results after the DQ-

Spies 551
Mladin 449
Hacking 403

Yup, it's pretty much over, though it's not technically clinched. If something happened to Spies before the next round and he was out for the remainder and Mladin won the final three, Mladin wins the championship. All Spies has to do is score 12 points (I think, accounting for pole points and most-laps-lead points) at the first round at RA and he has it clinched.

As much as I wanted Spies to win, I was hoping it would come down to the wire.

[The GECCO]

look at what those cheating suzuki's used to do back in the 750cc, superbike days...

Clark shuold know what's wrong with this picture:

http://www.foxperformanceengines.com/flywheel.jpg

ummmmm....no clutch plates? :lol:

[dave.gallant]

look at what those cheating suzuki's used to do back in the 750cc, superbike days...

Clark shuold know what's wrong with this picture:

http://www.foxperformanceengines.com/flywheel.jpg

ummmmm....no clutch plates? :lol:

Look - Ben forgot to torque down the cylinders!

And the oil galley plug is not siliconed!!

[benfoxmra95]

damn fluid retaining bolts....grrrrr..... I hate em! Look at you sitting there all nice and dry with your copper washer just saying"hi look at me ill never leak oil, honest", Come here you you little sob, let me drill you and run some safety wire through your hole..

Woops did my inner monologue fail again...sigh...

[Ashli]

I gotta say one thing though, they should have known better, I mean come on everyone has been getting their shit looked at this year, did they think they were untouchable.


Now why does that sound familiar.... :^o

[Tumbleweed]

F it, I'll bite.

AT LEAST THERE IS A ORGANIZATION THAT ACTUALLY PENALIZES ILLEGAL MODS TO BIKES. AND IT OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T MATTER IF THE OFFENDERS ARE ONE OF THE TOP RIDERS. THEY STILL PENALIZE HIM.

If any of you have a problem with that go F yourself.

sidenote: I have kept nice and quiet on the forums lately but since my name was brought up in this post (even as a joke) I felt compelled to react.

[benfoxmra95]

it was a joke with all the intent to put things in the past and move on. Didn't realize you were so sore about the situation.

This forum is full of crap talk and joking around, you know that.

[Ashli]

it was a joke with all the intent to put things in the past and move on. Didn't realize you were so sore about the situation.

This forum is full of crap talk and joking around, you know that.

What situation would that be? People getting away with cheating because the board doesn't want to deal with it? Or is it because they don't want people to lose their points then not race the rest of the season, because there would be no point. Therefore, the club loses those entrance fees.... hit the nail on the head didn't I? But then again (a direct quote from a board member) "this is club level racing!" so we shouldn't really care.

I say we just burn the rule book all together.

Okay just a side note before I get unleashed upon and probably exiled for speaking up (because nobody else will aside from CWeed) I shouldn't say the board in general because there are a few people who don't agree with what went down in Pueblo.

[hcr25]

I just want to spank you :P

[Ashli]

I just want to spank you :P

That can be arranged.... :twisted: we all know I deserve it.... :mrgreen:

[The GECCO]

hit the nail on the head didn't I?
No, you didn't.


But then again (a direct quote from a board member) "this is club level racing!" so we shouldn't really care.
Thanks for at least not including your interpretation of what I said inside the quotes. If you had been present during the conversation you would know that the context of that quote was that a rider wants to continue a pissing contest that started LAST YEAR by using the rule book to beat someone he can't beat on the track. The spirit of my remark was that it's time to let go of the past because this is club level racing and it's supposed to be fun. Fun is the only reason anyone should be doing this because there isn't anyone doing it to pay their mortgage.


People getting away with cheating because the board doesn't want to deal with it?
It was dealt with, and properly at that. If you want to file a protest, it must be done properly. If it isn't done in accordance with the rulebook, it won't be upheld. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[Ashli]

Sugar coat it any way you want Prez. I heard about the conversation you had with Chris.... cheating is cool. Because nobody is getting their mortgage payments made. Although, winning an ROR race on a money weekend would definitely pay my mortgage. :lol:

[The GECCO]

Sugar coat it any way you want Prez. We know why Chris' protest was thrown out and how it got there.

No, why don't you explain it to everyone?

[dragos13]

Just for my own clarification, in the rulebook when a supersport bike is found to be illegal, what is the punishment? Do we have a list that can be chosen by the board like the AMA does? Does it just state, the club will decide the punishment based on what rider was caught? Or does it state that no matter what is illegal, it will result in lose of points. I just want to know as next year supersport will be my main class.

[Ashli]

[quote]Sugar coat it any way you want Prez. We know why Chris' protest was thrown out and how it got there.

Why would I give you that satisfaction? I'm not playing anymore games with this lovely reocurring situation. Also, it's not like you went indoors to have a private conversation with Chris, only about eight people heard the conversation. I didn't have to be there to get the skinny on what went down. :)

[Ashli]

Just for my own clarification, in the rulebook when a supersport bike is found to be illegal, what is the punishment? Do we have a list that can be chosen by the board like the AMA does? Does it just state, the club will decide the punishment based on what rider was caught? Or does it state that no matter what is illegal, it will result in lose of points. I just want to know as next year supersport will be my main class.

Section 13 - PENALTIES
A. Unless penalties are otherwise expressly provided for in this rule book, MRA
Officials may disqualify or suspend any rider for the remainder of the event for
any violation of the rules of competition, insubordination, or any other conduct
detrimental to the event. In addition, fines ranging from $25 to $1,000 may be
levied. Fined riders are barred from further competition pending payment of the
fine, unless there is an appeal in process.
B. Penalty for license applications, loan of license to another party, participation in
fraudulent use of credentials, including loaning of a license or associate
membership card(s) for gaining access to an event or for member discounts,
shall be cause for suspension of at least one year.
C. Upon entering a motorcycle in any MRA class, the rider is responsible for their
motorcycle meeting class requirements. If at any time the entered motorcycle is
found to be illegal for the entered class, the rider will forfeit points and monies
earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that
same class.
D. Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to
gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and
monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that
year in that same class. Violations judged to not result in a performance
advantage will results in fines and/or suspension.
E. Penalties assessed monetarily must be paid prior to participating in any MRA
sanctioned event, regardless of when the penalty was assessed.

[dragos13]

Thats exactly what I thought. Thanks Ashli!!!

[The GECCO]

Didn't have to go indoors for a private conversation since there wasn't anything to hide. Is anyone contradicting my version of the spirit of the conversation?

You've obviously got something to say, though you decided to edit your post after the fact. Don't hide behind snide accusations, come out and say it.

[Ashli]

Thats exactly what I thought. Thanks Ashli!!!

No problem babe.

Glenn, honestly if you don't know what I'm talking about then don't even worry about it, I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. As for your "spirit" of the conversation, whatever that means, no one contradicted anything. If you think that what you said was valid, then think that. Everyone can have their own opinion of it. As for my opinion you were completely out of line. End of story.

[jenners225]

I'll chime in..... as I was present for the conversation and the way the situation was approached it came off as is if Weed was doing something wrong by protesting an illegal part found on a motorcycle instead of the rider who was actually found with the illegal part.

I will say also that the term "this is club level racing" was used in a way to almost condone cheating. IMO

[benfoxmra95]

Please read:

http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=7004


Taken from our 2008 rule book:

Section 2.2

Supersport motorcycles must meet the following requirements in addtion to the requirements in Section 5 - Technical and Safety Requirements. Only the modifications listed in this section are permitted. No other changes from showroom stock will be allowed. Abosolutelty no updating or backdating of parts will be allowed unless specified by the rules. All motorcycles must display vehicle identification number on the main frame.

A welded on swingarm?....modified geometry of the frame?

Does this bike totally comply?

Weed Im not trying to start shit here, not at all. But you guys want to follow the rule book to the "T" then I'd consider your mods to be out of the Supersport rules and you yourself are racing a illegal bike.

[JimWilson29]

http://smiliesftw.com/x/munchstretchcouch2.gif

[Tumbleweed]

Good point Ben,
Actually the swingarm that was welded had a crack in the original weld on the left side of the swingarm. Tony rewelded the swingarm in the exact spot of the original weld, then straightened the swingarm and frame to the original specs from the factory. Nothing has been added or modified. Therefore it is still SS legal.

[dave.gallant]

( this is my own personal opinion btw, so read it as that )

So, kick them both out for crying out loud!

Either make Supersport into Superbike or kick everyone out who can't follow the damn rulebook and start fresh.

Yup - this is only club racing. If a racer loses "points", they just lost some "points"!. Your manhood or your ability to pay your mortgage wasn't questioned, so stop the damn whining and prepare a motorcycle that is actually legal for the class.

( And don't even try to tell me that your ability to procure parts or services from your sponsors is somehow in jeopardy because you lost your "points". If your bike was legal for the class you were racing in, you would not have lost your points in the first place, and the actual 10% discount you get on parts will still be there. )

And, if you want to protest someone, do it. Again, and again, and again. If more people did this, we wouldn't have these damn problems in the first place.

[dave.gallant]

Good point Ben,
Actually the swingarm that was welded had a crack in the original weld on the left side of the swingarm. Tony rewelded the swingarm in the exact spot of the original weld, then straightened the swingarm and frame to the original specs from the factory. Nothing has been added or modified. Therefore it is still SS legal.

New swingarm for a 2006+ GSXR6/750 can be had for $50 at D2 cycles.

Buy one, then tell people questioning the bikes legality to kiss your left shoe.

[The GECCO]

Well, it wasn't intended to infer that we condone cheating.

For the record - the protest was received and discussed. The other rider was informed that he had been protested and that he had been disqualified from the event. It wasn't until about 15 minutes after that that another board member brought up the fact that the protest wasn't filed properly. Based on that, the decision was reversed.

Ray and I went to explain to Chris why his protest wasn't being upheld. In the course of the conversation is when it was determined that at least part of the reason for the protest was hurt feelings over events that took place last season. If someone protests because they want fair racing, fine. But using the rulebook to single someone out and exact revenge because of past events just doesn't sit right with me. The MOTIVATION behind the protest is what I took personal issue with, not the fact that it had been filed in the first place. But my personal feelings about it didn't factor into the reversal decision for two reasons 1) the decision had already been made, and 2) it wasn't my decision to make, it was Ray's.

[Tumbleweed]

Thanks Dave, Will do.

[bluedevil]

I have chosen to stay politically correct and not say anything on this topic. Basically like the majority of the folks who do agree with Chris yet have also not yet grown a pair to speak up about it. The simple fact is this. When the protest was made at the last round, it did not include the page number and rule number of the infraction and by default was deemed an invalid protest. This despite each member of the impromptu board meeting starring at the infraction with their own eyes. Granted, the protest was done in a hurry and lacked 1 vital piece of info also stated in the rule book as needed to be valid. Ok cool. Protest thrown out and rider again gets by with no infraction. Here is where the situation went aria. What should have happened is VP of Tech and Rules (The guy we PAY to handle just such situations), approaches the person who made the protest and states simply: “Your protest was deemed invalid for XYZ reason. Any questions?” Situation closed. At this point a can of “whoop a$$” so to speak was opened up on Chris for being the voice of honesty and ethics. (But not by the VP of rules and tech, the very person in charge of this very situation). As far as your interpretation of he "motivation" for the protest: It couldnt have been the 3rd infraction or(bending of the rules) by the same rider in 2 consecutive years that had anything to do with the singling out of the protest could it?. I would ask how many protests of the same rider does it take before the club starts asking that rider if they can provide a copy of the rule book to them????
Im not sure why Chris or any other rider who makes a protest is made out to be a cry baby, or only cries cause he cant beat X rider, when they should be looked on as a person who looks for fairness and someone who follows the rules. (Side bar X rider has beaten Y rider on a lower CC bike as well has also been beaten)

Now none of this is the major concern to me here, though I know it is to others. A few key issues that come to light here for me . “Fun is the only reason anyone should be doing this because there isn't anyone doing it to pay their mortgage”

Yes however one key thing is missed. Even if you don’t ever win a freekin dollar racing, it doesnt matter. I know Chris spends 15-25K a year to race. I have personally spent roughly 60K in 5 years of racing, and won less than 6K in all of that time. None the less my mortgage is roughly 66K in that time frame. By default some racers spend near or more than they do on a mortgage to participate in this club. Each time a cheating, or illegal parts are allowed, condoned, or encouraged in this club, you take a big ole crap on the time spent that the honest racer took to make all that money to participate. The time away from their family and pregnant wife working 16+ hours a day to afford to race in a club that crucifies him for playing fair . This is all discounted by allowing cheating to continue. By simply side stepping responsibility of each member to step up and do what they can to have a fair, non partial race that ultimately ends up in an awfully high amount of “fun”. On a side note I remember a really big 4 ft wide check presented to Brewer in 2005 of which was for more than my mortgage is in nearly an entire year)


Secondly after the a$$ whoopin is handed out you have smug folks coming over to gloat as to say nanny nanny boo boo “Well that didn’t work out so well did it?” (This one for which I WAS present for.) Are you kidding me? Another rule broken with no penalty and that is something to grin about and rub in the face of the protestor? Not even jokingly was that considered “cool”. What happened was another chip in the foundation of the integrity of our racers and club.

Don’t get me wrong, I love racing, I love this club, and I love its members (most of them) in fact some of which I have the up most admiration and respect for participating in this very discussion, none the less, quit being a Candy A$$ Jabronie and start handing out some a$$ whoppin’s to the cheaters and for the politically correct folks who have trouble with that word (the folks who have parts/ mods that are not what we would say legal” for SS competition). Time to start getting the words “MRA” and “cheater club” out of people’s mouths, cause Im just plain sick of hearing about it.

Lastly, It is due to these recent events, I have chosen to with draw from any remaining Super sport races in the MRA for the remainder of the season or until we can turn the table on this issue to one that is more discouraging of cheating, that it is encouraging.
It is my love of racing and this club, and my apparent priority over my mortgage payment that I will only participate in Superbike regulated classes from this point forward, despite only being a pipe, power commander, (and my illegal onboard MotoComm video system) racer………. See ya at Pueblo !!!

[Ashli]

Well, it wasn't intended to infer that we condone cheating.

For the record - the protest was received and discussed. The other rider was informed that he had been protested and that he had been disqualified from the event. It wasn't until about 15 minutes after that that another board member brought up the fact that the protest wasn't filed properly. Based on that, the decision was reversed.

Ray and I went to explain to Chris why his protest wasn't being upheld. In the course of the conversation is when it was determined that at least part of the reason for the protest was hurt feelings over events that took place last season. If someone protests because they want fair racing, fine. But using the rulebook to single someone out and exact revenge because of past events just doesn't sit right with me. The MOTIVATION behind the protest is what I took personal issue with, not the fact that it had been filed in the first place. But my personal feelings about it didn't factor into the reversal decision for two reasons 1) the decision had already been made, and 2) it wasn't my decision to make, it was Ray's.

Thanks for saying it for me Glenn. So yeah, this "board member"
brought that to your attention and it was overturned. So you can follow protesting rules but not your own rules from the MRA Rulebook? Wow.

Who the hell cares if you think it's a personal issue, it's cheating is it not? It was an illegal part on the bike. So once again you guys took it in your own hands and decided for yourselves that it was an act of "revenge" and found a reason to get rid of his protest.

[jenners225]

I have chosen to stay politically correct and not say anything on this topic. Basically like the majority of the folks who do agree with Chris yet have also not yet grown a pair to speak up about it. The simple fact is this. When the protest was made at the last round, it did not include the page number and rule number of the infraction and by default was deemed an invalid protest. This despite each member of the impromptu board meeting starring at the infraction with their own eyes. Granted, the protest was done in a hurry and lacked 1 vital piece of info also stated in the rule book as needed to be valid. Ok cool. Protest thrown out and rider again gets by with no infraction. Here is where the situation went aria. What should have happened is VP of Tech and Rules (The guy we PAY to handle just such situations), approaches the person who made the protest and states simply: “Your protest was deemed invalid for XYZ reason. Any questions?” Situation closed. At this point a can of “whoop a$$” so to speak was opened up on Chris for being the voice of honesty and ethics. (But not by the VP of rules and tech, the very person in charge of this very situation). As far as your interpretation of he "motivation" for the protest: It couldnt have been the 3rd infraction or(bending of the rules) by the same rider in 2 consecutive years that had anything to do with the singling out of the protest could it?. I would ask how many protests of the same rider does it take before the club starts asking that rider if they can provide a copy of the rule book to them????
Im not sure why Chris or any other rider who makes a protest is made out to be a cry baby, or only cries cause he cant beat X rider, when they should be looked on as a person who looks for fairness and someone who follows the rules. (Side bar X rider has beaten Y rider on a lower CC bike as well has also been beaten)

Now none of this is the major concern to me here, though I know it is to others. A few key issues that come to light here for me . “Fun is the only reason anyone should be doing this because there isn't anyone doing it to pay their mortgage”

Yes however one key thing is missed. Even if you don’t ever win a freekin dollar racing, it doesnt matter. I know Chris spends 15-25K a year to race. I have personally spent roughly 60K in 5 years of racing, and won less than 6K in all of that time. None the less my mortgage is roughly 66K in that time frame. By default some racers spend near or more than they do on a mortgage to participate in this club. Each time a cheating, or illegal parts are allowed, condoned, or encouraged in this club, you take a big ole crap on the time spent that the honest racer took to make all that money to participate. The time away from their family and pregnant wife working 16+ hours a day to afford to race in a club that crucifies him for playing fair . This is all discounted by allowing cheating to continue. By simply side stepping responsibility of each member to step up and do what they can to have a fair, non partial race that ultimately ends up in an awfully high amount of “fun”. On a side note I remember a really big 4 ft wide check presented to Brewer in 2005 of which was for more than my mortgage is in nearly an entire year)


Secondly after the a$$ whoopin is handed out you have smug folks coming over to gloat as to say nanny nanny boo boo “Well that didn’t work out so well did it?” (This one for which I WAS present for.) Are you kidding me? Another rule broken with no penalty and that is something to grin about and rub in the face of the protestor? Not even jokingly was that considered “cool”. What happened was another chip in the foundation of the integrity of our racers and club.

Don’t get me wrong, I love racing, I love this club, and I love its members (most of them) in fact some of which I have the up most admiration and respect for participating in this very discussion, none the less, quit being a Candy A$$ Jabronie and start handing out some a$$ whoppin’s to the cheaters and for the politically correct folks who have trouble with that word (the folks who have parts/ mods that are not what we would say legal” for SS competition). Time to start getting the words “MRA” and “cheater club” out of people’s mouths, cause Im just plain sick of hearing about it.

Lastly, It is due to these recent events, I have chosen to with draw from any remaining Super sport races in the MRA for the remainder of the season or until we can turn the table on this issue to one that is more discouraging of cheating, that it is encouraging.
It is my love of racing and this club, and my apparent priority over my mortgage payment that I will only participate in Superbike regulated classes from this point forward, despite only being a pipe, power commander, (and my illegal onboard MotoComm video system) racer………. See ya at Pueblo !!!


=D>

[trophywife626]

Ray and I went to explain to Chris why his protest wasn't being upheld. In the course of the conversation is when it was determined that at least part of the reason for the protest was hurt feelings over events that took place last season. If someone protests because they want fair racing, fine. But using the rulebook to single someone out and exact revenge because of past events just doesn't sit right with me. The MOTIVATION behind the protest is what I took personal issue with, not the fact that it had been filed in the first place. But my personal feelings about it didn't factor into the reversal decision for two reasons 1) the decision had already been made, and 2) it wasn't my decision to make, it was Ray's.

The reason for the protest was not about "hurt feelings" and had nothing to do with "revenge". The protest was made in hopes that the particular rider, who had previously (and on more than one occasion) been in violation of the rules, would be punished according to the rulebook, as he should have been. Props to him for actually utilizing the rulebook for once and finding a loophole regarding the way the protest was filed to get him out of a violation. Unfortunately, although many people agree with the position Chris has taken with the issue(s), Chris becomes the bad guy for actually calling someone out instead of shrugging it off and avoiding confrontation.

[trophywife626]

WELL SAID DION!!! =D>

[Clarkie]

So I'm guessing my t-shirt with 'Cheater' and a huge arrow underneath it (pointing left or right not straight up :D ) isnt going to cut it as a legal protest now?

Dammit I got it made up for nothing! :lol:

[Racing616]

I say we (read=the club) pay King Clarkie (or Faster!, I think their dyno is mobile) to bring his dyno out to the track (someone else can run it), and set appropriate HP limits for the top five in Super Sport races....all bikes lined up one at a time, and run them after the race with the tech inspector there. End this whole rules enforcement debacle properly.

[Clarkie]

while I like the idea, as you know with your dyno small things can effect the final reading, temp, humidity, tire brand etc. This is why the factories dont want to play in the dyno classes, my bike can gain or lose 10-15hp depending on the day/tire/position on the roller/how tight it is strapped down etc.

For example, an 06-08 R6 will gain or lose 5-6hp depending on if you strap it down or not, that's 5% gain......well not really but i could make a 600 'lose' 5hp on the dyno. Some shops will even do the 'before' dyno runs without strapping the bike down and then do the 'final' run with the bike strapped down like a mofo so it looks like they gained more than they really did :lol:

With a lot of my MRA customers I have told them to bring a 'dyno tire' which is usually just a hard as shit street tire, every time they come back to the dyno they use the same tire at the same pressure, heck even a different compound tire will read diferently.

It would be kinda cool to bring the dyno down just for some fun, we could run a pool to see who thinks who has the highest hp 600/750/1000/twins etc, I think a lot of people may be surprised how fast some people are going on some slow bikes :wink:

It's like the stock CBR600RR I raced against Josh at Miller last weekend, even Josh was laughing at how slow it was compared to his R6........... but he ended up having to have his nails painted by his girls so maybe the 'slow' bike wasnt that bad afterall........... or maybe it was the fear of the girls getting to put makeup on me that made me go so fast :lol: Yup racing with the Graham family is so much fun, the look on Pat's face when he saw the nails was priceless :D

Sorry where was I..... Dam Suzuki's/Cheaters/etc/blah blah blah :D

[cromer611]

what about a 50cc pit bike dyno shootout? my zuma might blow up though.

cheater suzukis---- QQ more plz

[sheispoison]

For example, an 06-08 R6 will gain or lose 5-6hp depending on if you strap it down or not, that's 5% gain......well not really but i could make a 600 'lose' 5hp on the dyno

Wouldn't that make it more fair? All top 5 bikes strapped the same and on the tire they just came off the track on? I'm sure it'd be a pain in the arse, but it seems the one sure fire way to level the playing field in supersport.
carl

[Racing616]

Aaron, I understand how dyno tuners/shops can make different reads on a dyno, and this point ic completely valid and worth looking at, but there is a series in Canada and two in the USA who have been doing this for a few years now, with great consistency. I think we could mirror their setup, and make it work.

In direct answer to the change of a dyno, bring a control bike. One of the big Japanese shops could donate the MRA a "dyno mule" BONE STOCK motorbike, and it is at every race. From race to race, whatever the percentage that it is off of the control number can be applied to the top five supersport racers.

[Clarkie]

ya that would work Brad, or even just compared each bike to each other, one day they make make 110 the next 115 but if they are making 110 and one pops up at 120 you know there is something to look at :D

the other way is to not strap them down at all, i may have to eat more for lunch as the 1000's will hop the rear wheel when not strapped down but that is one variable taken out of the equation

[Clarkie]

Wouldn't that make it more fair? All top 5 bikes strapped the same and on the tire they just came off the track on? I'm sure it'd be a pain in the arse, but it seems the one sure fire way to level the playing field in supersport.
carl

it also changes between bikes depending on the linkage ratio, not all bike make more strapped down, some make more with less tension on them. A lot of bikes will make more with a stock shock than with a race shock if they arent cranked down, if you dont crank them down but start playing with the compression in the shock it will change them hp shown, crazy huh

If you have a bike on the dyno and someone that needs to eat a bit more like Dingle that weight nothing dyno's the bike, and then someone that likes to eat lunch dyno's the bike the hp number will be more, as dyno shops we go through this all the time, trying to explain why someone's bike 'lost' power after their 'hot mod' they found on the internet when in reality the last time they were on the dyno was in March with crisp cool air and 5% humidity compared to August when it is 105 with 60% humidity and they changed the gearing, tires etc etc, quad guys are the worst! :D

[DingleBerns]

Just out of curiosity....

This is off the topic, but regarding those bikes that were found to be illegal and were fined $50 because there was not a huge performance advantage.

What about running slicks in supersport? Those are illegal as well and could be classified as not being a huge performance advantage. If a racer runs slicks in supersport will there be a $50 fine or will they be DQ'd?

[Hotrod]

I'm gonna beat brownie to it:

... oh, Dingle....
:wink:

[Ray-Ray]

Just out of curiosity....

This is off the topic, but regarding those bikes that were found to be illegal and were fined $50 because there was not a huge performance advantage.

What about running slicks in supersport? Those are illegal as well and could be classified as not being a huge performance advantage. If a racer runs slicks in supersport will there be a $50 fine or will they be DQ'd?



Dingle - Read the rule book. 2.2.2 G Only DOT tires may be used. If someone ran slicks in a SS class then they could be DQ'd and lose their points in that class for the season.

[DingleBerns]

what about the mods that were illegal at hastings, were those in the rule book and stated like the tire issue regarding DQ's?

*Edit*

Section 13.C explained it.

Now my question....

Knowing that running slicks in SS and the mods found in hastings are both illegal for supersport because of these two specific rules

1)
2.2.2 G Only DOT tires may be used. If someone ran slicks in a SS class then they could be DQ'd and lose their points in that class for the season.

and

2)
Section 13

C. Upon entering any motorcycle in any MRA class, the rider is responsible for their motorcycle meeting class requirements. If at any time the entered motorcycle is found to be illegal for the entered class, the rider will forfeit points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class.

Why does one result in a $50 dollar fine and the other a DQ when they both are illegal and both are not a huge performance advantage?

I don't even run supersport, I just want clarification.

Thanks! Dingle :D

[polar x]

As much as I love seeing someone else being in the target zone I am gonna take a peak over the berm 8)

Why are you all baiting the board/Ray? They/he is trying to do their job and be fair without being an ass. Did he and or the board make a mistake? One could argue for both sides ( I would have done it differently) but that's quarterbacking and hindsight. Ray has the clubs best interest at hand as does the rest of the board. The rule book is a contract with the club, and as such it does carry a certain INTENT clause that has to come into the judgment phase. They did what they thought was best for the situation and its over. Clearly the rule book needs to be changed to allow more flexibility or less aggressive penalty's. But that's for 09 and all this poking at them does the club no good. I don't just say this because Ray is a friend, I would say this for Ben, Bart and Glenn if they were in the position. And I have been on the poo flinging side (and I like it) so don't think I don't understand.

And just so my stand/view is clear, I DO agree with Chris. If I were the tech guy I would have DQ'd them all for infractions (regardless of the boards view since it would be my call) and when the poo flew I would have swatted it back at them with a copy of rule book. END OF DISCUSSION. Would not make any friends but it would have been right and defensible. IMHO

[Lurch]

Where is the Track Marshall when all this is going on? Unless the rulebook has been changed since I was involved the Track Marshall is suppose to take care of all protest.

Lurch

[Tumbleweed]

Yes I believe a mistake was made at Hastings. Yes, I did not put the rule # on the protest at Pueblo which made the protest invalid. Yes I believe the way the protest was handled in Pueblo by Glenn Conser to me was wrong. Can any of this be changed now, NO. Therefore I will not bring up the past again after this post. In my opinion there have been many mistakes made by members of the board this season. Hopefully these mistakes will not be made again in the future.

Glenn: As far as the conversation we had at Pueblo, you were wrong by how you handled the situation. The protest was made to give the MRA a chance to right the wrong that was made in Hastings. Whether you believe the decision in hastings was right or wrong doesn't matter. I was giving the opportunity for the decision to be corrected by pointing out yet another thing illegal on Danny Andersons #445 bike. Yes in the past two seasons Danny has bent the rules a few times and always gotten away with it. I have protested him last season and this season for breaking rules and both of my protests have been thrown out due to my mistakes of making my own protest form on computer paper improperly(sidenote: I think protest forms should be provided by the MRA so that we can properly call out rule breakers) and because of rulebook interpretations last season. You can look at that as me having something against Danny if you want. The bottom line is I am just calling him out on his illegal bike. Is Danny a good racer, Absolutely. Is he fast, Absolutely. Have I beaten him this season on a 750 while he was riding his R1, Yes. So to say I am protesting him because I can't beat him is incorrect on your part once again. And why would it matter if he is faster than me or not. Bottom line is he broke rules so stop changing the subject to discredit me. Back to why you are wrong by the way you handled the situation in Pueblo. When you and Ray came to talk with me, Ray explained that I filled out the protest form improperly and the protest was being thrown out. I fully expected something like this so I was ready. I said, you are right, I understand I made a mistake and I understand why it was thrown out due to my mistake. This is where the discussion should have ended but it didn't. At this point you stepped in to the conversation and asked me what I have against Danny. This should have never been asked due to fact that it had nothing to do with the situation. Being me I answered you with an honest answer that he has broken rules before and it pisses me off that the MRA has not found him to be at fault so I will protest him again when I find something wrong with his bike. After this you explained to me in so many words that this is club racing and I shouldn't take these things so seriously. To this I say you are wrong. I have been fighting this battle simply on ethics and principle. I believe people should do their absolute best to follow the rules. In the conversation we had at Pueblo you made me out to be the bad guy and made me feel bad for doing the right thing and protesting an illegal bike. You have twisted everything around to make me look like an asshole and discredit my name. At some point in this entire ordeal I have offended you and you have made this very personal. You have had a comeback to anything that has been said on this forum. You have bashed me about having illegal cameras on my bike which I took off, and you have said many other things about me and my bike to make it sound as if I am a cheater. I have worked hard to be legal this season. Whenever I had a question I called Ray and asked him if it was legal or not. For crying out loud I even safty wired every single exhaust spring on my bike because it is in the rulebook to do. I could only guess how many bikes have this done, because it is a royal pain in the ass. All I am asking is that you stop making this personal with me. I would ask for an appology for treating me like shit but I hear you are never wrong and don't appologize so I will settle with you just leaving the personal shit aside.


As for anybody in the club who has agreed with what I am fighting for, thank you for your support.

As for those who are mad at me for calling them out, this was not meant to be personal, I just want fair racing. If you want to take it personal that is fine, but I will advise that you stay out of my pits and leave my property alone. Whoever messed with the pitbike Sat night at Pueblo I would appreciate it if you didn't do that again. You may have thought it was funny, but I take it as a threat. If you have a problem with me talk to me face to face and we can discuss it. Do not mess with my property because you haven't grown up yet.

I would very much appreciate it if nobody mentions my name on the forums as a joke. I don't take it as being funny. When my name is mentioned I feel compelled to defend myself. I will gladly stay off the forum and not respond to this post any further. I have spoken my peace and hope that you can respect me for at least having the balls to speak up on behalf of all the MRA racers who are sick of the BS.

On a sidenote, just so you all know, when I made the protest at Pueblo I had Glenn on the radio to discuss what info he wanted me to put on my makeshift form. He relayed what he wanted on the form and I filled it out and signed it. Then later down the road I was told it was filled out improperly. Take that as you want. (Another reason to have protest forms available to racers)

[gixxermike]

Dingle has a very valid point

Racer "A" enters a race on slicks and gets DQ'd b/c the rules say no slicks

Racer "B" enters with illegal parts and gets a $50 fine and a slap on the wrist with a "you should know better" when the rules say no illegal parts


Hmmmmm

[The GECCO]

On a sidenote, just so you all know, when I made the protest at Pueblo I had Glenn on the radio to discuss what info he wanted me to put on my makeshift form. He relayed what he wanted on the form and I filled it out and signed it. Then later down the road I was told it was filled out improperly. Take that as you want. (Another reason to have protest forms available to racers)

This is not correct. Jen called me on the radio and basically said "Someone wants to protest, what do I do?" I did not "relay what I wanted", I simply told her that the protest must be written. Granted, I didn't say "make sure it conforms to the rulebook", but that's only because I had forgotten that such a thing was even IN the rulebook. Jim Brewer, who probably knows the rules better than anyone since he is in charge of preparing the rule book each year, is the person who brought it up.

FWIW, Chris, I only recall one other protest that you made against Danny. Or more correctly, I only recall one other protest against Danny and I think it was you that filed it, but I could be remembering wrong. This was the protest last year regarding Danny running RoR and AM races in the same day. This protest was not held up because during the discussion it was discovered that Danny had asked Tim Young (track marshal) if he was allowed to ride both and Tim erroneously told him yes. Because this type of protest fell to the track marshal to decide, he decided in Danny's favor because it didn't seem right punishing Danny for Tim's error. Right or wrong, that's why that decision went the way it did. I thought/assumed this was all explained to you (if it was you), but maybe not, but either way, it had nothing to do with you making your own protest form on computer paper. I don't recall any other protests being rejected because of the way they were filed, am I completely missing something?

[James W]

This is what the club needs straight cut, no bull$hi. I agree weed! :)

[Wild Cheetah 612]

I wasn't part of this decision, but did see the protest and signed it off as being timely.
I think there are some really good points being made. Personally, I don't like kit ECUs and the like in Supersport, but it was approved by the Rules Committee and the Board okayed it because that's what the members wanted.
Breaking the rules with windscreens, catch cans, ram air tubes, and dust covers on wheels is minor in my opinion and shouldn't result in a DQ and loss of points and money because in most cases the intent of performance advantage and resulting performance advantage is minimal.
However, rules are rules and these SS violations are getting out of control.
The Board, including Ray-Ray, wants to be fair and not overly Nazi about minor violations, but, damn! we're not the AMA yet there's money and points on the line!

So what do we as a club want to do?

Please help us out and offer some viable solutions. It's really hard making these decisions sometimes. I had to vote against my teammate and friend at Hastings for riding RoRO as a first year expert because that's what the rules say and I try my damnedest to be fair to the individual riders and to the club as a whole.

C-Weed had a legitimate protest but was called on a technicality. It was a minor violation. Put yourself in his shoes and Danny's shoes. Kinda sucks on both sides. What do you guys out there think is the solution?

[Ashli]

Is it just me or is there this sense of complete oblivian? What should we do? What is a sloution? Follow the damn rulebook for once!!!!!! This isn't "let's figure out what to do for next season" we have three races left! I'm sick of this pussy footin' around. Use the rulebook for what its there for. Crikey! Next year, yes, perhaps let's discuss some changes (hopefully on the board as well, we need people who aren't afraid to hurt feelings and want to keep it fair) in the rulebook. We need to get our members more involved in this process, and if this dabacle doesn't who the hell knows what will.

[cu260r6]

The rulebook doesn't really address the issue of discretion in deciding the penalties for infractions which is the issue Dion and Weed raised. I see a few options for curing this.

First, you could do as some suggest and have a strict DQ/points loss penalty for any infraction. In the criminal justice arena stiffer penalties for crimes do not lead to a greater deterrence value, but a greater chance of getting caught does, so this is probably not the best option. Having more teardowns each year would decrease cheating. The year I started racing in 2005 there were 3-4 teardowns, each aimed at different modifications.

Second, the rulebook could have sentencing guidelines or ranges. There could be a distinction made between non performance enhancing modifications/performance enhancing and between performance enhancing modifications that would have resulted in a significantly different outcome/not significant. Penalty ranges could be specified as warning to fine, fine to individual race points loss, individual event DQ to suspension.

Third, you could go further and specify specific penalties for specific infractions, but this is more time consuming to write, debate, and pass.

[Lel399]

The problem is, who determines what a 'performance gain' is? Ask some racers, slicks are not better than DOT's, ask some old school racers about slipper clutches, and I bet they would say it doesnt make them a bit faster. There is no way to define 'performance gain' in the real world without going by personal feelings or assumptions.

I also believe we should stick to what the rulebook states; and I really dont believe this is 'club racing'. I go out there to have fun, but there are definately guys out there to make money... and they make quite a bit of it doing this.

Club racing is a club that you gon on the weekend, get a pat on the back for doing a good job and maybe a little trophy. This is PRO-AM racing, professional racers and amateur racers alike racing together, and people make a living off of this 'club'. I think it is forgotten that peoples lives (vendors, some racers and communities raced in) are based upon the actions within the club, this is far more than 'club racing'.

I guess if there is a fix that can be taken, create an ongoing rules committee; led by the VP of Rules and Tech and one other board member that the VPR&T can choose from when there is an issue. For instance there is an on track protest... VPR&T chooses the Track Marshall to co chair that decision, other times maybe a Rider Rep (cough Brewer) that knows the rules well. The additional 3 people will be peers... must be racing members, that are not involved in the situation or class in question. The beginning of the year, 10 people can volunteer to be on the rules committee or appointed by the VPR&T to help decide on situations like this.... the logistics are a lot easier than it sounds. Decisions do not need to be immediate, given by wednesday after the race a decision will be made. With email, phones etc a concensus could be reached quite easily within those 5 people by that time.

Every other club (non motorcycle related) I have ever been with have a Rules Committee that helps decide on tough subjects, and can make a decision/change mid year. I have never seen any club up until the MRA that says once the rules are written, they are set in stone for a year. Things change mid year that can have an effect on racing. The ability to make a group decision, with the peer input is what makes clubs fair and just.

Just my 2 pennies. :D

[cu260r6]

The problem is, who determines what a 'performance gain' is? Ask some racers, slicks are not better than DOT's, ask some old school racers about slipper clutches, and I bet they would say it doesnt make them a bit faster. There is no way to define 'performance gain' in the real world without going by personal feelings or assumptions.


Even a marginal performance gain is a gain. Running slicks might not be classified as having a significant impact on the outcome, but by being explicitly illegal in supersport they are by definition considered a performance gain. For chassis modifications it is harder to judge, but for engine modifications it would be easy to set a 3 tiered system. If it possibly could add more than 1hp it's a performance gain, more than 5hp it's a significant factor, and if it could not possibly add more than 1hp it's not a performance gain.

Clearly the board found that there was discretion written into the rulebook at the Hastings teardown, so this would just be codifying what is currently being done. By defining penalty limits and classifications it would remove enough discretion to blunt the personal bias claim and leave enough to refine the penalty to suit individual circumstances.

[dragos13]

I completely agree with Chris Weed and everyone else who wants the rules to be followed.

For the board and the president, can I ask why the riders in Hastings were fined for $50? Was it due to the rider being on a "illegal bike" or was it something else? Also, if that is the reason isn't the penalty clearly defined in the rulebook for riding an illegal bike?

Just trying to clear things up as I plan on running SS classes as my main classes next year, and I would like a clear defined rule for running illegal mods. I currently run in the back of the SS pack and wont even run an illegal windscreen on my bike. I read the rulebook the last two years, attended the rule change meeting, and try to follow the rules as I best understand. Thanks in advance!

[JimWilson29]

I have protested him last season and this season for breaking rules and both of my protests have been thrown out due to my mistakes of making my own protest form on computer paper improperly(sidenote: I think protest forms should be provided by the MRA so that we can properly call out rule breakers).....


So why don't we have "official" protest forms created and made available in the race day office right next to the race schedules? Have a template with everything that is required listed on it. Then whoever is filing the protest has no argument if it was filled out incorrectly.

[clowe]

So I have sat around and had some great reading over the past few days about all of this but I have to say something.

First of all, in 2004 I made a protest of a certain "top rider" in the MRA. This rider was going out in Open SS on 16.5s and Slicks. His argument was that he didn't get to practice on Saturday and he was using the race for ROR practice. He had not intention of finishing the race yet he started from the back of grid and diced it up with the leaders for six laps. I protested his a$#. I would have had no problem if he would have taken the grid, let everyone go and not "raced" the actual Open SS racers. On cheating equipment, with no intention of finishing the race he could have effected the outcome. This is very wrong in my book. In the end, after the protest was filed, the board and many other members of the club came to me and asked me to take back my protest. At the end of the day I did because I was tired of the fight. I wish that I would not have but there was a part of me that was here for fun and dealing with that wasn't fun. At the time the rider would have beat on the track no matter what so I kind of left it at that. Also, it seemed like no one on the board really wanted to deal with it (BTW, different board than we have now).

Fast forward to the following year. My Suzuki GSXR 750 made 138 HP. There was a certain Yamaha R6 that was running in Heavyweight SS. This R6 would have no problem rolling past me after the 1/4 mile mark at Pueblo. Was the rider good, yes. Was his bike legal, I don't know because I never protested him. I heard later that that bike had cams, a kit ECU and a different charging system among other things. Was that a performance advantage, for sure. Do I know all of this for sure, nope. Like I said, I never protested this rider because A) I wanted to beat them while they were riding a cheater bike (which I did) B) I wanted that bike torn down to the crank and I didn't think anyone would ever actually allow it to get to that point C) As mentioned in this thread I didn't want someone tearing my bike down and I'll explain why next.

So, here is the real issue with all of this that I have seen. My bikes have been looked at for years. I have often had people think I was cheating (Ben, this is for you 00--00 ) for years, but my bikes always go through with flying colors. BUT, here is the issue. I build my bike in my garage and as I whole, I know very little. Ask anyone who have has ever come to my pits to help me with something. I am not mechanically inclined and for the most part have not idea what I am doing. All of my motors are bone stock and the rest is stuff that I bolt on. I am telling everyone all of this for a reason. The rule book to me is very unclear and I would hate to loose all my points, results and $$$ won because I didn't understand some in the rule book. My friend pointed out something to me after the tear down in Hastings that could have been deemed illegal and I was floored. I was floored because it was so simple and I figured it out on my own so I figured it had to be legal. AND, the way I read the rule book, it was fine. AND, my bike went through the teardown and no one, not Ray, Ben or Glenn said a thing. In truth to this day, I don't know if I was OK or not. It is that issue that scares me about this whole thing and something that I feel needs to be taken into account. Because I am not a pro racer or mechanic, nor would I be able to afford racing if I had to employ one, I am at risk of making a mistake that costs me my season. That does not seem right when the rule book is not clear. Now, if I have cams, crank work and pistons, OK, I know I'm doing something wrong. But to lose your whole season because of a catch can, that does not seem right. I do think there has to be some intent somewhere in the rules because a catch can is different than a stroker motor.

Also, I have crashed and bent a frame, much like many of you have. By the rules, you can not weld that frame nor can you alter that frame at all. That includes getting it straightened after you have crashed your brains out. Do we really want SS riders to have to buy a new frame anytime they break off a rear-set tab or a swingarm spool? That does not seem right to me. The rules committee has told me many times that the point of SS is to be more cost effective. That is the reasoning for not allowing rain tires in SS, because then you increase the cost. What is we had to buy a new frame every time you fall down. And, in truth, if you have an 07 you can only by an 07 frame even though an 06 would work because there is not backdating of parts. This all seems that it is going to start making SS racing very expensive. I can think of something on every SS racers bike that would make it fall into this category.

So, is this cheating and breaking the rules? Is having your rearset welding back on the same as running 16.5s and slicks in SS? Is having aftermaket ram-air tubes the same as having a kit ECU (was not legal at the time), cams, a kit charging system and kit pistons?

Those all do not seem the same to me so maybe we need to better define this before our next race is a protest fest!

[dragos13]

So, is this cheating and breaking the rules? Is having your rearset welding back on the same as running 16.5s and slicks in SS? Is having aftermaket ram-air tubes the same as having a kit ECU (was not legal at the time), cams, a kit charging system and kit pistons?

Those all do not seem the same to me so maybe we need to better define this before our next race is a protest fest!

Crash, I agree that by opinion those shouldn't all have the same penalties. Thats why we need to change the rulebook for next year. Give the board a list of possible penalties in which all or just one can be applied.

However, as most of the racers see the current rule book, there is only one penalty for running an illegally modded bike in any class. That is not something that was written to be judged and modified come time. Maybe next year we should write the rules that the board can punish based on favor and opinion. I'm sure this will work great with the racers (atleast a few) :roll:

[benfoxmra95]

This is ridiculous.

Protest Forms...? WTF...

is that what we want this club to turn into? a bunch a whining Effen crybabys with sand in their chauch that protest everything in sight.

There were just over 70 entrys out at hastings, Lets tear them all down to the last bolt and see who goes home with a trophy. Let's piss everyone off, let's send everyone home. Then maybe we can get down to only 3 riders per class and everyone gets a trophy.

There were 8 people entered in Oss at hastings. Lets kick 3 of them out, and see what happens to your precious contingency money from suzuki and yamaha and honda etc...

If someone in front of me is running a double bubble windscreen. I don't care. He's in front of me for more reasons than that.

If someone is in front of me and has a big bore motor, then good for him and He'll have to live with that fact in his mind that he knows he's a cheater and wasn't skilled enough as a rider.


Is this truly how you people want to beat each other? with a rule book? I wouldn't accept one Trophy that was given to me if I had to use the rule book to get it.


The MRA board is doing some of the best work they can with what they have to work with, calling them out and dragging them down doesn't help anything at all. If you for one minute think they don't have the entire memberships best interest in their minds, then you need to go race elsewhere.

I started racing in this club 11 years ago, I have seen some stupid shit and this finger pointing and "oh woe is me" crap, and all the other garbage dribbling here is tipping my B.S. meter.

This club has been around for pretty long time and operating on basically the same set of rules for more years than I know, They seemed to have worked pretty well up until now.

[benfoxmra95]

So, is this cheating and breaking the rules? Is having your rearset welding back on the same as running 16.5s and slicks in SS? Is having aftermaket ram-air tubes the same as having a kit ECU (was not legal at the time), cams, a kit charging system and kit pistons?

Those all do not seem the same to me so maybe we need to better define this before our next race is a protest fest!

Maybe next year we should write the rules that the board can punish based on favor and opinion. I'm sure this will work great with the racers (atleast a few) :roll:

What reasons do you have to bash the board here?

How have they wronged you, that you feel you need to take a jab at them with that statement?

Let me open this question up to everyone....Has anyone in this club been wronged somehow by the board? Speak up...

[dragos13]

So, is this cheating and breaking the rules? Is having your rearset welding back on the same as running 16.5s and slicks in SS? Is having aftermaket ram-air tubes the same as having a kit ECU (was not legal at the time), cams, a kit charging system and kit pistons?

Those all do not seem the same to me so maybe we need to better define this before our next race is a protest fest!

Maybe next year we should write the rules that the board can punish based on favor and opinion. I'm sure this will work great with the racers (atleast a few) :roll:

What reasons do you have to bash the board here?

How have they wronged you, that you feel you need to take a jab at them with that statement?

Let me open this question up to everyone....Has anyone in this club been wronged somehow by the board? Speak up...

The board didnt wrong me, they could DQ the top 5 riders in SS and I'm still out of the money either way. I'm not fighting for myself, I'm just looking for clarification. I read the rulebook one way, and it says you get DQ'd when you run a bike deamed illegal for a class. I want to know how and where the $50 is justified, other then based on opinion. Not trying to make anyone hate me on this topic, but are the rules not clearly defined for punishment on illegal bikes? Regardless if its a SBK built motor or an incorrectly routed vent tube?

I just see way too much "opinion" being thrown into a ruling that is written in the rulebook. Thats why for next year maybe it can say:

Punishment for illegally modded bikes can include one or all of the following:

1. $50
2. DQ'd points
3. Etc.

[JimWilson29]

This is ridiculous.

Protest Forms...? WTF...

is that what we want this club to turn into? a bunch a whining Effen crybabys with sand in their chauch that protest everything in sight.

There were just over 70 entrys out at hastings, Lets tear them all down to the last bolt and see who goes home with a trophy. Let's piss everyone off, let's send everyone home. Then maybe we can get down to only 3 riders per class and everyone gets a trophy.

There were 8 people entered in Oss at hastings. Lets kick 3 of them out, and see what happens to your precious contingency money from suzuki and yamaha and honda etc...

If someone in front of me is running a double bubble windscreen. I don't care. He's in front of me for more reasons than that.

If someone is in front of me and has a big bore motor, then good for him and He'll have to live with that fact in his mind that he knows he's a cheater and wasn't skilled enough as a rider.


Is this truly how you people want to beat each other? with a rule book? I wouldn't accept one Trophy that was given to me if I had to use the rule book to get it.


The MRA board is doing some of the best work they can with what they have to work with, calling them out and dragging them down doesn't help anything at all. If you for one minute think they don't have the entire memberships best interest in their minds, then you need to go race elsewhere.

I started racing in this club 11 years ago, I have seen some stupid shit and this finger pointing and "oh woe is me" crap, and all the other garbage dribbling here is tipping my B.S. meter.

This club has been around for pretty long time and operating on basically the same set of rules for more years than I know, They seemed to have worked pretty well up until now.


Not my intention when I made the suggestion of an official protest form. Just throwing out an idea for when there is a legitimate protest situation to make the process more efficient so that they are not tossed out because of the technicality that it was not filled out correctly.

[gixxermike]

Is this truly how you people want to beat each other? with a rule book? I wouldn't accept one Trophy that was given to me if I had to use the rule book to get it.

It's not the point of getting trophies or points or $$$ out of these protests, but why the F*&^ have a rule book if people aren't going to follow them, might as well just have sbk classes only, and see the MRA membership dwindle even more. b/c who is going to continue wanting to race in a club that allows cheaters to cheat.

[benfoxmra95]

Is this truly how you people want to beat each other? with a rule book? I wouldn't accept one Trophy that was given to me if I had to use the rule book to get it.

It's not the point of getting trophies or points or $$$ out of these protests, but why the F*&^ have a rule book if people aren't going to follow them, might as well just have sbk classes only, and see the MRA membership dwindle even more. b/c who is going to continue wanting to race in a club that allows cheaters to cheat.

your missing my point here....I'm not saying F the rule book. Im saying let's not turn into a bunch of whiners.

[rforsythe]

I do think there has to be some intent somewhere in the rules because a catch can is different than a stroker motor.

This is true. I think the "intent" is the crux here, because that's left up to whoever is deciding the rider's fate. Then again maybe there should be some of that ability left in; was the intent to cheat, or simply to make the bike safe? Was a legal alternative available? Did the illegal part effect any advantage whatsoever?


Also, I have crashed and bent a frame, much like many of you have. By the rules, you can not weld that frame nor can you alter that frame at all. That includes getting it straightened after you have crashed your brains out. Do we really want SS riders to have to buy a new frame anytime they break off a rear-set tab or a swingarm spool? That does not seem right to me. The rules committee has told me many times that the point of SS is to be more cost effective. That is the reasoning for not allowing rain tires in SS, because then you increase the cost. What is we had to buy a new frame every time you fall down. And, in truth, if you have an 07 you can only by an 07 frame even though an 06 would work because there is not backdating of parts. This all seems that it is going to start making SS racing very expensive. I can think of something on every SS racers bike that would make it fall into this category.

Hm. So for one, I think if a frame can be welded back to safe condition, it should be allowed. If anything this is a performance disadvantage, because it's adding metal to the bike. But I think it should have to be put back to OEM+weld condition, i.e. no substituting pieces for drilled-out custom fabrications just because "it broke off" (I could see that happening).

Regarding straightening... Good luck proving it even happened. Brand new bikes are very often taken to guys like Tony Martin to get checked out and tweaked, because the tolerances from the factories are loose as hell. I don't consider that a modification, at least in my mind. Having also had a bike checked and corrected by him, I'm also doubtful that you would ever be able to prove it happened in a protest situation; yeah the bike is straight, but so what? "Must have come that way." I wouldn't even sweat that one, for the same reason that Kit ECU's are now allowed - whether it's a financially limiting factor for some riders or not, the MRA has no way to prove it was there and so they can't expressly disallow it from being used.

I'm on the fence about the "06 will work in 07" thing. To allow something like that would then require the board, or at least the VP of R&T, to be an expert in every model's engineered specifications, which is basically impossible. While it's true that many bikes use the same parts for multiple years with "bold new graphics", the possibility of minor modifications between otherwise substantially identical parts means they more or less need to mandate that it stay from the same production year just to avoid that possibility. I'd also add that were you to crash bad enough to render the frame unusable, you've already raised your expenses significantly; the SS vs SB cost argument is less relevant. But again, I think things should be able to get welded back, provided it's put back to OEM standards plus the repairing welds required.

As for rain tires... I can't remember but I thought once upon a time it was decided to allow them in SS in the interest of safety, since even many DOT tires are a fair bit more advanced than what most people would use on a street bike but scary as hell in the wet. Was that not ever taken all the way? Granted Pueblo isn't a wet-run track, but it sounds like we're gonna have a few more that are in the near future.


So, is this cheating and breaking the rules? Is having your rearset welding back on the same as running 16.5s and slicks in SS? Is having aftermaket ram-air tubes the same as having a kit ECU (was not legal at the time), cams, a kit charging system and kit pistons?

Those all do not seem the same to me so maybe we need to better define this before our next race is a protest fest!

Let it be a protest fest, if that's what the racers in a given class want to do with it. My guess is most just want to show up and race, but if they want to throw their money down (along with a technically correct protest form) and try to win that way, I say go for it. If anything we'll get another entertaining thread about it.

A more legitimate solution however, would be for people to give a damn in the rule process that happens every year, put their thoughts down, and actually take an afternoon out of their lives to show up and fix what they see to be grievous problems in this more-than-club-racing activity's guidelines. I'm glad to see it getting hashed out in this thread (even by people who don't actually race in the MRA), but it would actually be meaningful if that same level of passion went into the rules editorial process this coming fall.

Are the rules ambiguous? Then figure out how to write them in a way that is very cut and dry. Are the penalties to vague or subjective? Then determine how to actually make them objective and absolute, in a way that actually covers all of the potential loopholes and is fair to all riders.

Donna asked for what the solution is to this: Well, that's it right there. Show up when you're called to it and give your opinions. Everything presented in the rules committee meeting ends up at the MRA board for review and potential approval. If something of this magnitude is presented in a way that it makes sense, and the board realizes that it's something that the membership at large wishes to happen, I'd think the chances of it going through are likely. Unfortunately, the half dozen people who do make it to the rule change meetings end up deciding the fate of everyone, because nobody else takes much interest in the process. I really hope to see that trend reverse this year, because there are obviously a lot of people on here with valid, real opinions on this stuff, with money and whatever else on the line.

FWIW I do agree that whether you make money at this or not, it's no fun if different riders have different standards applied to them. I wasn't there so whether it happened here or not I can't say, and I know (probably better than anyone here) how much things can explode on Internet forums. I also know how hard it is to make these kinds of decisions with racers in your face demanding swift justice, so I can see it from both sides of the coin.

None of this is going to be fixed on a forum, but I truly suggest that everyone with an opinion on how it should be take the time to rationally express those ideas (including wording on intent, if so desired) in writing and submit them to the rules change process -- including showing up at the review meeting, to defend and explain your idea. If it needs to be changed, then getting that done is straightforward.

[benfoxmra95]

This is ridiculous.

Protest Forms...? WTF...

is that what we want this club to turn into? a bunch a whining Effen crybabys with sand in their chauch that protest everything in sight.

There were just over 70 entrys out at hastings, Lets tear them all down to the last bolt and see who goes home with a trophy. Let's piss everyone off, let's send everyone home. Then maybe we can get down to only 3 riders per class and everyone gets a trophy.

There were 8 people entered in Oss at hastings. Lets kick 3 of them out, and see what happens to your precious contingency money from suzuki and yamaha and honda etc...

If someone in front of me is running a double bubble windscreen. I don't care. He's in front of me for more reasons than that.

If someone is in front of me and has a big bore motor, then good for him and He'll have to live with that fact in his mind that he knows he's a cheater and wasn't skilled enough as a rider.


Is this truly how you people want to beat each other? with a rule book? I wouldn't accept one Trophy that was given to me if I had to use the rule book to get it.


The MRA board is doing some of the best work they can with what they have to work with, calling them out and dragging them down doesn't help anything at all. If you for one minute think they don't have the entire memberships best interest in their minds, then you need to go race elsewhere.

I started racing in this club 11 years ago, I have seen some stupid shit and this finger pointing and "oh woe is me" crap, and all the other garbage dribbling here is tipping my B.S. meter.

This club has been around for pretty long time and operating on basically the same set of rules for more years than I know, They seemed to have worked pretty well up until now.


Not my intention when I made the suggestion of an official protest form. Just throwing out an idea for when there is a legitimate protest situation to make the process more efficient so that they are not tossed out because of the technicality that it was not filled out correctly.

Understood....

[Ashli]

Is this truly how you people want to beat each other? with a rule book? I wouldn't accept one Trophy that was given to me if I had to use the rule book to get it.

It's not the point of getting trophies or points or $$$ out of these protests, but why the F*&^ have a rule book if people aren't going to follow them, might as well just have sbk classes only, and see the MRA membership dwindle even more. b/c who is going to continue wanting to race in a club that allows cheaters to cheat.

your missing my point here....I'm not saying F the rule book. Im saying let's not turn into a bunch of whiners.

You can call anyone who protests a cheater a whiner but that doesn't change the fact that you're still a cheater. Use the rulebook for what it's there for, whats so damn complicated about that? It doesn't matter if you care that the guy in front of you has a double bubble windscreen, the shit is still illegal, end of story.

[Ashli]

I have protested him last season and this season for breaking rules and both of my protests have been thrown out due to my mistakes of making my own protest form on computer paper improperly(sidenote: I think protest forms should be provided by the MRA so that we can properly call out rule breakers).....


So why don't we have "official" protest forms created and made available in the race day office right next to the race schedules? Have a template with everything that is required listed on it. Then whoever is filing the protest has no argument if it was filled out incorrectly.

Jim we were just talking about that Friday night. :) Great call.

[T Baggins]

Just for the record, as far as favoritism goes - (I'm speaking for the Board here, even though I shouldn't - and without their approval or knowledge) we don't like ANY of you enough that we would maliciously bend or interpret the rules so that one person comes out ahead. At least I know I don't like any of you that much... :wink:

Shit happens, people make mistakes, people cheat intentionally and people cheat accidentally. Sorting that out is the hard part. The V.P of Rules and Tech (as well as 1/2 of the other Board positions) is coming up for election for 2009. If you have ideas on how to run the club better, please run for a position and show us what you got. That's not just passing the buck, I'm serious. This is an unbelievably thankless task, that no matter what we do - we're gonna piss someone off. I'm sure as many people would find it absurd and outrageous if Danny had been DQ'd for the year because of the windscreen... Sux that Weed filed the protest wrong I agree, but that's that. The windscreen violation is enforced by protest - if the protest wansn't valid - then what? Should we enforce it anyway? What if I'm in the stands and someone says "That mo-fo on the #xx bike is so fast he MUST be running a stroker crank." Should we tear him down, or does someone need to file an official (and valid) protest?

I understand there is frustration, and yes - the rulebook needs some serious attention - but come on... I've mentioned this many times lately:

Seems like there's an opportunity here to start a thread in the Rules & Tech forum spelling out EXACTLY what you want the rulebook to say and how you want penalties levied. I can't help but notice that nobody has done that yet...

To address something Crash stated, you will notice that there is a SPECIFIC section in the rulebook about slicks in SS classes. The reason the penalty is so severe, is we had to come up with something that would COMPLETELY solve the problem - and prevent the person from doing it over and over again... So Crash complained, withdrew his protest (which I agree he shouldn't have done) and the rulebook was changed anyway.

We do have a process, and it does work. It ain't perfect, but it's your club and your rulebook. If you don't like it, do something about it. Something productive, I mean...

[gixxermike]

your missing my point here....I'm not saying F the rule book. Im saying let's not turn into a bunch of whiners.

I understand your point Ben but people shouldn't ever be considered as whiners when all they are doing is pointing out illegal parts.

I absolutely agree with Jim on the forms that way there is NO confusion on what info is needed. What would you do if you were still the VP of rules.

[benfoxmra95]

your missing my point here....I'm not saying F the rule book. Im saying let's not turn into a bunch of whiners.

I understand your point Ben but people shouldn't ever be considered as whiners when all they are doing is pointing out illegal parts.

I absolutely agree with Jim on the forms that way there is NO confusion on what info is needed. What would you do if you were still the VP of rules.

In a club like ours, we should be able to go up and confront someone we are racing against and say hey are you sure what you have on your bike is legal? and try and come to a resolve before it get's nasty.

Much like what someone did to me at hastings....someone came into my pit looked at my bike and said "hey that ram air ducts are illegal"(by his interpetation of the rules)

I said no they are not(by my interepetation of the rules and proceded to leave them on knowing that a showdown would be coming about them the following day after supersport. and I prepared for penalties I may or may not deserve, and didn't try to hide anything.)

This is the point, we are a club a family, why can't we be cool about things, and not try to stick it to someone to "prove a point"

[cu260r6]

This is true. I think the "intent" is the crux here, because that's left up to whoever is deciding the rider's fate. Then again maybe there should be some of that ability left in; was the intent to cheat, or simply to make the bike safe? Was a legal alternative available? Did the illegal part effect any advantage whatsoever?

There is no intent element in the rulebook, and it has been enforced without consideration to intent. Proving someone added/modified an illegal part with the knowing or willful intention to cheat would be so hard as to make many violations unenforceable. Cheating is a strict liability offense. If you do it you're guilty regardless of the reason even if it's mechanical ignorance.

[rforsythe]

This is true. I think the "intent" is the crux here, because that's left up to whoever is deciding the rider's fate. Then again maybe there should be some of that ability left in; was the intent to cheat, or simply to make the bike safe? Was a legal alternative available? Did the illegal part effect any advantage whatsoever?

There is no intent element in the rulebook, and it has been enforced without consideration to intent. Proving someone added/modified an illegal part with the knowing or willful intention to cheat would be so hard as to make many violations unenforceable. Cheating is a strict liability offense. If you do it you're guilty regardless of the reason even if it's mechanical ignorance.

I'm glad someone keyed off of that, and I like your response.

That said, if the enforcement that took place (just based on what I've read) was all that and a bag of chips, I don't think this thread would have reached 5 pages.

Maybe intent isn't the right way to base penalties, but perhaps end result is? If someone is mechanically ignorant and does something that is illegal but basically benign, how do you assess the penalty? I think it would be over the top to DQ them, but do agree that something should be done.

Obviously there's some major dissent with how this all played out. Just to reiterate what may have been glossed over at the bottom of my last post (and which Tony also stated after that), there's a rule change process in which the racers themselves get to alter the rules formally to make them fair and applicable to all.

Hashing it out in this thread isn't going to get it done, though the dialog is probably headed in that direction. If the rules aren't clear, aren't fair, or aren't enforceable equitably, then take the published steps necessary to make it right. If the rules leave grey areas or room for subjective interpretation currently, then make a proposal including how it should be written (note the difference there between that, and simply saying "it's broke, someone else go fix it").

Or maybe some of you think the rules are fine, but that the mindset needed to apply them needs to change. If that's the case, like Tony said, go put your name on the ballot and step to the plate. This is a club run by racers for racers, and these guys are doing the best they can, but everyone is human whether they're expected to be perfect or not. If people feel a great injustice has been done, then either work to make the rule changes y'all think are necessary so that anyone can enforce them without ever being second guessed again, or join the Board and enforce them yourselves so that all will be fair and just in the world once more.

Sarcasm aside, I am GLAD to see so many people as passionate about this as they are; that hasn't happened in a while. I just hope that passion carries forward into action and resolve when the time comes, instead of withering away into the annals of "forum bitch session" history like these things usually do. Many people are obviously fired up over it, so I look forward to reading the formal rule proposals submitted to the R&T Forum in the coming days and weeks and seeing what the solution will end up being in the end.

[clowe]

As a club we have to be able to look at intent. We have to be able to look at intent. Here is why.......

I fall down at Hastings on my 07 GSXR 750 and in the process I bend my frame, break off my rearset, break off my swingarm spool, dent my tank and break a wheel. So, let us say that I get my frame straightened, my reaset and swingarm welded back into place, I buy an 06 tank off of ebay and a wheel from an 08 GSXR 1000. If were to do all of this it would maybe cost $1000 and I back racing. Everything I did here made my bike illegal, PERIOD. Do any of these things offer me a performance advantage? If I go by the letter of the rulebook, I need but by a new frame, swingarm, a tank from only an 07 and a wheel from only an 07, 750. Maybe there I'm looking at spending over $3000, I don't know. I guess my point is that at then end of day I end up with the same bike in terms of performance. One is legal and the other could be protested for so many things. This is where intent comes into play.

In some way you have to view this by A) can the rulebook be read that the mod was somehow allowed (a gray area) and if it is up for question how is that person punished. B) what is the real advantage of what they did. I come back to my other point. If I put Yosh cams, pistons, crank and rods in my bike I would say that may be a big advantage. If I wend the swingarm spool back on after it brakes off, what advantage is that giving me? Should the punishment be the same for both of these items? I would love to know who it club believes that. Both are illegal and both carry the same outcome by the letter the rule book. C) I also think that if you looked hard enough you could find something small on every bike. What are we going to do, DQ the whole grid?

Look, I am a believer that the rules are the rules. That said, racing in the MRA, I don't think that someone welding a swingarm spool back on the bike is the same as building a stroker motor. By the rulebook, they get the same punishment. I want the rules enforced and I want everyone to play fair but at some point there has to be it also has to be fun. If I have to buy a new frame for my bike and spend $3000 (I don't really know what frame costs) instead of $150 to weld the rearset back on, that is not a lot of fun.

I think the long and short of it is that we either go by the letter of the rulebook and I think we will all protest each other and no one will race or we need to let there be some judgement somewhere.

Oh hell, what do I know. I only come racing to see Tony dance around in his little banana hamocks that his wife gets him.

[Ray-Ray]

I completely agree with Chris Weed and everyone else who wants the rules to be followed.

For the board and the president, can I ask why the riders in Hastings were fined for $50? Was it due to the rider being on a "illegal bike" or was it something else? Also, if that is the reason isn't the penalty clearly defined in the rulebook for riding an illegal bike?

Just trying to clear things up as I plan on running SS classes as my main classes next year, and I would like a clear defined rule for running illegal mods. I currently run in the back of the SS pack and wont even run an illegal windscreen on my bike. I read the rulebook the last two years, attended the rule change meeting, and try to follow the rules as I best understand. Thanks in advance!


Casey,

You keep asking questions that have already been answered. Glenn had already answered this question on July 14th. Here is what was said:

Personally, I am 100% comfortable with the decision as it was made.

Here is what was found:

(2) Yamaha R1's were found to have aftermarket ram air tubes

(1) Yamaha R6 was found to have the crankcase vented to the atmosphere, where the stock configuration has it vented to the airbox. FWIW, this is not the same as the modification that Dave (MotoSix) mentioned that has been proven to be a performance enhancer.

Here are a few relevant issues:

2.2.2.C.10.d states:
Quote:
Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.

Retaining "stock internal area and overall shape" is a somewhat subjective measurement of compliance.

Additionally, re-quoting what CWeed referenced (emphasis added):
Quote:
Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in...

means that it is still up to our discretion regarding whether or not these modifications resulted in a performance advantage.

Regarding the air tubes - Are they different? Yes. But, is different always better? Not necessarily. I'll bet everything I own that Yamaha puts more R&D behind the shape and size of their ducts than Sharkskins does. Just like the kids putting a big wing on the back of a Honda Civic - it's definitely different, but not a performance advantage. In fact they are a huge disadvantage to top speed and fuel efficiency.

Regarding the crankcase breather - also not necessarily a performance gain. In the stock configuration the vent is routed to the airbox between the air filter and the throttle bodies. This area sees high vacuum under wide open throttle conditions and this actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. This vacuum is a performance enhancer, all the ultra-high performance engines in F1 and the like actually run a pump that is designed to run the crankcase at as much as 18" of vacuum so there is less air for the crankshaft to push out of the way. Venting the breather to the atmosphere results in a loss of this vacuum, and this could be actually be a performance disadvantage. The modification Dave (MotoSix) mentioned is something that can be done to increase the vacuum of the crankcase on GSXR's. That was not found this weekend.

Tumbleweed wrote:
Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping.

Possibly because they are cheaper than OEM parts damaged in an accident, or to allow the OEM parts to be set aside along with the OEM bodywork to prevent them from being damaged.

In summary, while these items are violations, the board simply does not feel that the nature of the violations and the gains (if ANY) enjoyed by the riders justify a complete disqualification from the days events and loss of all points-to-date in those classes.



You guys are combining both the Hastings infractions and the protest in Pueblo together. You can't do that! They are completely separate.

My thoughts on Hastings,

Section 13 of the MRA rule book states in 13 D "Violations of technical and safety requirements judeged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. ( MOST PEOPLE STOP READING AT THIS POINT) Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension".

The violations that were found in my opinion could not be proven to result in a performance advantage. This is why only a fine was given. I'm not an engine builder, or own a dyno or have worked on motorcycles all my life. However, to make my decision I talked with SEVERAL long time MRA members, mechanics, and board members to help me with my decision.

Thoughts on the current rule book,

In my opinion there are several parts of the rule book that need to be clearer. We will address those issues in the 2009 rule book.


Now to the protest in Pueblo made by Chris Weed,

12.3 e The written protest must specify the rules or procedures that are in question, to include page number and item number from the rulebook. Scoring protest must be in writing,but do not need a rule book references.


Simply put Chris did not follow these guidelines in filing the protest so the protest was thrown out. As the VP of Rules and Tech it's not my job to judge a person on why or why not they should protest another rider or give my opinion to do so. I need to remain impartial and will do so throughout this process.



Now on a personal note,

The MRA voted me in to be the 2008 MRA VP of Rules and Tech. YOU, THE MRA VOTED ME IN! If, you think that I'm doing a poor job then please step up and run for my position for 2009.

Then YOU can spend countless hours going to meetings, responding to email, PMs and phone calls just so the MRA can ride around a race track and have fun. Then on race day YOU can spend most of your time teching bikes checking equipment for those loose bolts, leaky forks and warn out break pads. Then you can drop everything when someone crashes to get them ready to get back on the track when you are just taking your tire warmers off on second call for your race.

I am not complaining because I actually enjoy doing this and making sure that everyone has fun on the track and does it safely! But if someone actually thinks they can do it better, then step up to the plate next year and I will just enjoy racing and following the rules that keep all of us safe. Do you hear me complain when I don't have time to practice? NO, or the time I put into this club so you can race? NO. or the times when I get yelled at or bashed because I make YOU follow the helmet rules? NO! It's time to stop bashing the board and start coming up with solutions to help us the MRA move forward.

Obviously, everyone that has been posting on this forum is passionate about this sport and I think at this point the Board has heard everyone's Opinions and we may need to agree to disagree at this point and move on. I would suggest that each and everyone of you attend the 2009 Rules book commitee meeting that Jim Brewer will be having soon.

Thanks,
Ray-Ray

[Wild Cheetah 612]

I have no problem with being a hardass and I'm not oblivious to the issue. I totally agree with Crash in that we have to look at intent and performance advantage. That's what makes it so hard. The letter of the law is only one aspect. We must also look at the spirit of the law. I could bust just about everyone on the letter of the law of the 5mph speed limit in the pits. But the spirit of the law says if you're being cool, safe, aware of what's around you and reasonably slow, I'm not going to bust you.
We on the Board are always trying to see the forest through the trees and we are given some discretion with these decisions. If I played favorites, then Casey could ride his cheater motor http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Love/hello-065.gifand Dalton Dimick could ride RoRO.
I believe we'd have much more hitting the fan if we were totally by the book without taking into account the variables. So whether or not you guys really want human thought and consideration when dealing with the rules and situations, submit a rule change and come to the Rules Committee Meeting and have your voice heard.

[Clarkie]

I completely agree with Chris Weed and everyone else who wants the rules to be followed.

For the board and the president, can I ask why the riders in Hastings were fined for $50? Was it due to the rider being on a "illegal bike" or was it something else? Also, if that is the reason isn't the penalty clearly defined in the rulebook for riding an illegal bike?

Just trying to clear things up as I plan on running SS classes as my main classes next year, and I would like a clear defined rule for running illegal mods. I currently run in the back of the SS pack and wont even run an illegal windscreen on my bike. I read the rulebook the last two years, attended the rule change meeting, and try to follow the rules as I best understand. Thanks in advance!


Casey,

You keep asking questions that have already been answered. Glenn had already answered this question on July 14th. Here is what was said:

Personally, I am 100% comfortable with the decision as it was made.

Here is what was found:

(2) Yamaha R1's were found to have aftermarket ram air tubes

(1) Yamaha R6 was found to have the crankcase vented to the atmosphere, where the stock configuration has it vented to the airbox. FWIW, this is not the same as the modification that Dave (MotoSix) mentioned that has been proven to be a performance enhancer.

Here are a few relevant issues:

2.2.2.C.10.d states:
Quote:
Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.

Retaining "stock internal area and overall shape" is a somewhat subjective measurement of compliance.

Additionally, re-quoting what CWeed referenced (emphasis added):
Quote:
Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in...

means that it is still up to our discretion regarding whether or not these modifications resulted in a performance advantage.

Regarding the air tubes - Are they different? Yes. But, is different always better? Not necessarily. I'll bet everything I own that Yamaha puts more R&D behind the shape and size of their ducts than Sharkskins does. Just like the kids putting a big wing on the back of a Honda Civic - it's definitely different, but not a performance advantage. In fact they are a huge disadvantage to top speed and fuel efficiency.

Regarding the crankcase breather - also not necessarily a performance gain. In the stock configuration the vent is routed to the airbox between the air filter and the throttle bodies. This area sees high vacuum under wide open throttle conditions and this actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. This vacuum is a performance enhancer, all the ultra-high performance engines in F1 and the like actually run a pump that is designed to run the crankcase at as much as 18" of vacuum so there is less air for the crankshaft to push out of the way. Venting the breather to the atmosphere results in a loss of this vacuum, and this could be actually be a performance disadvantage. The modification Dave (MotoSix) mentioned is something that can be done to increase the vacuum of the crankcase on GSXR's. That was not found this weekend.

Tumbleweed wrote:
Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping.

Possibly because they are cheaper than OEM parts damaged in an accident, or to allow the OEM parts to be set aside along with the OEM bodywork to prevent them from being damaged.

In summary, while these items are violations, the board simply does not feel that the nature of the violations and the gains (if ANY) enjoyed by the riders justify a complete disqualification from the days events and loss of all points-to-date in those classes.



You guys are combining both the Hastings infractions and the protest in Pueblo together. You can't do that! They are completely separate.

My thoughts on Hastings,

Section 13 of the MRA rule book states in 13 D "Violations of technical and safety requirements judeged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. ( MOST PEOPLE STOP READING AT THIS POINT) Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension".

The violations that were found in my opinion could not be proven to result in a performance advantage. This is why only a fine was given. I'm not an engine builder, or own a dyno or have worked on motorcycles all my life. However, to make my decision I talked with SEVERAL long time MRA members, mechanics, and board members to help me with my decision.

Thoughts on the current rule book,

In my opinion there are several parts of the rule book that need to be clearer. We will address those issues in the 2009 rule book.


Now to the protest in Pueblo made by Chris Weed,

12.3 e The written protest must specify the rules or procedures that are in question, to include page number and item number from the rulebook. Scoring protest must be in writing,but do not need a rule book references.


Simply put Chris did not follow these guidelines in filing the protest so the protest was thrown out. As the VP of Rules and Tech it's not my job to judge a person on why or why not they should protest another rider or give my opinion to do so. I need to remain impartial and will do so throughout this process.



Now on a personal note,

The MRA voted me in to be the 2008 MRA VP of Rules and Tech. YOU, THE MRA VOTED ME IN! If, you think that I'm doing a poor job then please step up and run for my position for 2009.

Then YOU can spend countless hours going to meetings, responding to email, PMs and phone calls just so the MRA can ride around a race track and have fun. Then on race day YOU can spend most of your time teching bikes checking equipment for those loose bolts, leaky forks and warn out break pads. Then you can drop everything when someone crashes to get them ready to get back on the track when you are just taking your tire warmers off on second call for your race.

I am not complaining because I actually enjoy doing this and making sure that everyone has fun on the track and does it safely! But if someone actually thinks they can do it better, then step up to the plate next year and I will just enjoy racing and following the rules that keep all of us safe. Do you hear me complain when I don't have time to practice? NO, or the time I put into this club so you can race? NO. or the times when I get yelled at or bashed because I make YOU follow the helmet rules? NO! It's time to stop bashing the board and start coming up with solutions to help us the MRA move forward.

Obviously, everyone that has been posting on this forum is passionate about this sport and I think at this point the Board has heard everyone's Opinions and we may need to agree to disagree at this point and move on. I would suggest that each and everyone of you attend the 2009 Rules book commitee meeting that Jim Brewer will be having soon.

Thanks,
Ray-Ray










I'm just quoting Ray Ray cause it is a really long post and I want this thread to get to 10 pages :lol:

But seriously, i agree with the 'intent' idea, so why no come up with a list of mods that people can vote to allow at the rules meeting, things like
double bubble
airtubes
kit ecu's
aftermarket master cylinders
adding a zip tie to help tidy up your wiring harness
aftermarket subframe
etc etc etc

If you arent at the rules meeting and cast your vote you cant complain, simple

some of these things (and many more) are a modification of either convenience or cost (cheaper), to me if you change something to make life easier at the track (like making a spacer or something that lets you get your rear wheel on without cursing for 10 minutes about the brake capiler and pads) for you that does NOT make your bike have a advantage over another it should be allowed, if you replaced an OEM part with an aftermarket part (ducts or subframe) because the OEM's want way too much money for the stock replacement part, it shuld be allowed.

Racing is far too expensive as it is, cutting costs saves us money and allows us to keep racing, if i can spend $100 on an aftermarket subframe to save myself $750 on a new Suzuki OEM one it should be allowed, the OEM stuff is almost as light as lets face it we could all probably skip a meal and save more weight.

I say get rid of some of the BS rules that just cause controversy, and maybe tighten up some of the classes and bikes that are elligible in them, there are several bikes that shouldnt be allowed in a particular class, but you cant blame the rider as they are just following the rules













......... come on 10 pages woohoo! :lol:

[Brian38]

I just want to say my name is Brian and I am a cheater.

Wow, that was hard to admit but they say the first step to knowing you have a problem is to admit it :oops: .

I have a Super Sport non-compliant windscreen. After much soul searching I am able to face this fact.

I have faced my demons and will resolve them internally.

Thanks for all the support !!!

Brian






(I'm pullin for page 10 Clarkie)






For what it is worth the most accurate thing in this discussion is:
If you do or do not like the rules. GET INVOLVED!!! Put some effort in or quit bitching. :D

[DingleBerns]

[the OEM stuff is almost as light as lets face it we could all probably skip a meal and save more weight.

Personally, I think I would disappear if I skipped a meal. :D

I agree on the intent subject & lessening the penalty for non performance mods such as windscreens, zip ties, etc...

For what it's worth, I would be willing to make up protest papers that would be available in the race day office that includes a box for every single piece of information that is needed for a legitimate protest. All one has to do is "handwrite" everything in.

[froth]

I completely agree with Chris Weed and everyone else who wants the rules to be followed.

For the board and the president, can I ask why the riders in Hastings were fined for $50? Was it due to the rider being on a "illegal bike" or was it something else? Also, if that is the reason isn't the penalty clearly defined in the rulebook for riding an illegal bike?

Just trying to clear things up as I plan on running SS classes as my main classes next year, and I would like a clear defined rule for running illegal mods. I currently run in the back of the SS pack and wont even run an illegal windscreen on my bike. I read the rulebook the last two years, attended the rule change meeting, and try to follow the rules as I best understand. Thanks in advance!


Casey,

You keep asking questions that have already been answered. Glenn had already answered this question on July 14th. Here is what was said:

Personally, I am 100% comfortable with the decision as it was made.

Here is what was found:

(2) Yamaha R1's were found to have aftermarket ram air tubes

(1) Yamaha R6 was found to have the crankcase vented to the atmosphere, where the stock configuration has it vented to the airbox. FWIW, this is not the same as the modification that Dave (MotoSix) mentioned that has been proven to be a performance enhancer.

Here are a few relevant issues:

2.2.2.C.10.d states:
Quote:
Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.

Retaining "stock internal area and overall shape" is a somewhat subjective measurement of compliance.

Additionally, re-quoting what CWeed referenced (emphasis added):
Quote:
Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in...

means that it is still up to our discretion regarding whether or not these modifications resulted in a performance advantage.

Regarding the air tubes - Are they different? Yes. But, is different always better? Not necessarily. I'll bet everything I own that Yamaha puts more R&D behind the shape and size of their ducts than Sharkskins does. Just like the kids putting a big wing on the back of a Honda Civic - it's definitely different, but not a performance advantage. In fact they are a huge disadvantage to top speed and fuel efficiency.

Regarding the crankcase breather - also not necessarily a performance gain. In the stock configuration the vent is routed to the airbox between the air filter and the throttle bodies. This area sees high vacuum under wide open throttle conditions and this actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. This vacuum is a performance enhancer, all the ultra-high performance engines in F1 and the like actually run a pump that is designed to run the crankcase at as much as 18" of vacuum so there is less air for the crankshaft to push out of the way. Venting the breather to the atmosphere results in a loss of this vacuum, and this could be actually be a performance disadvantage. The modification Dave (MotoSix) mentioned is something that can be done to increase the vacuum of the crankcase on GSXR's. That was not found this weekend.

Tumbleweed wrote:
Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping.

Possibly because they are cheaper than OEM parts damaged in an accident, or to allow the OEM parts to be set aside along with the OEM bodywork to prevent them from being damaged.

In summary, while these items are violations, the board simply does not feel that the nature of the violations and the gains (if ANY) enjoyed by the riders justify a complete disqualification from the days events and loss of all points-to-date in those classes.



You guys are combining both the Hastings infractions and the protest in Pueblo together. You can't do that! They are completely separate.

My thoughts on Hastings,

Section 13 of the MRA rule book states in 13 D "Violations of technical and safety requirements judeged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. ( MOST PEOPLE STOP READING AT THIS POINT) Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension".

The violations that were found in my opinion could not be proven to result in a performance advantage. This is why only a fine was given. I'm not an engine builder, or own a dyno or have worked on motorcycles all my life. However, to make my decision I talked with SEVERAL long time MRA members, mechanics, and board members to help me with my decision.

Thoughts on the current rule book,

In my opinion there are several parts of the rule book that need to be clearer. We will address those issues in the 2009 rule book.


Now to the protest in Pueblo made by Chris Weed,

12.3 e The written protest must specify the rules or procedures that are in question, to include page number and item number from the rulebook. Scoring protest must be in writing,but do not need a rule book references.


Simply put Chris did not follow these guidelines in filing the protest so the protest was thrown out. As the VP of Rules and Tech it's not my job to judge a person on why or why not they should protest another rider or give my opinion to do so. I need to remain impartial and will do so throughout this process.



Now on a personal note,

The MRA voted me in to be the 2008 MRA VP of Rules and Tech. YOU, THE MRA VOTED ME IN! If, you think that I'm doing a poor job then please step up and run for my position for 2009.

Then YOU can spend countless hours going to meetings, responding to email, PMs and phone calls just so the MRA can ride around a race track and have fun. Then on race day YOU can spend most of your time teching bikes checking equipment for those loose bolts, leaky forks and warn out break pads. Then you can drop everything when someone crashes to get them ready to get back on the track when you are just taking your tire warmers off on second call for your race.

I am not complaining because I actually enjoy doing this and making sure that everyone has fun on the track and does it safely! But if someone actually thinks they can do it better, then step up to the plate next year and I will just enjoy racing and following the rules that keep all of us safe. Do you hear me complain when I don't have time to practice? NO, or the time I put into this club so you can race? NO. or the times when I get yelled at or bashed because I make YOU follow the helmet rules? NO! It's time to stop bashing the board and start coming up with solutions to help us the MRA move forward.

Obviously, everyone that has been posting on this forum is passionate about this sport and I think at this point the Board has heard everyone's Opinions and we may need to agree to disagree at this point and move on. I would suggest that each and everyone of you attend the 2009 Rules book commitee meeting that Jim Brewer will be having soon.

Thanks,
Ray-Ray










I'm just quoting Ray Ray cause it is a really long post and I want this thread to get to 10 pages :lol:

But seriously, i agree with the 'intent' idea, so why no come up with a list of mods that people can vote to allow at the rules meeting, things like
double bubble
airtubes
kit ecu's
aftermarket master cylinders
adding a zip tie to help tidy up your wiring harness
aftermarket subframe
etc etc etc

If you arent at the rules meeting and cast your vote you cant complain, simple

some of these things (and many more) are a modification of either convenience or cost (cheaper), to me if you change something to make life easier at the track (like making a spacer or something that lets you get your rear wheel on without cursing for 10 minutes about the brake capiler and pads) for you that does NOT make your bike have a advantage over another it should be allowed, if you replaced an OEM part with an aftermarket part (ducts or subframe) because the OEM's want way too much money for the stock replacement part, it shuld be allowed.

Racing is far too expensive as it is, cutting costs saves us money and allows us to keep racing, if i can spend $100 on an aftermarket subframe to save myself $750 on a new Suzuki OEM one it should be allowed, the OEM stuff is almost as light as lets face it we could all probably skip a meal and save more weight.

I say get rid of some of the BS rules that just cause controversy, and maybe tighten up some of the classes and bikes that are elligible in them, there are several bikes that shouldnt be allowed in a particular class, but you cant blame the rider as they are just following the rules













......... come on 10 pages woohoo! :lol:








Teri and I second Mr. C's push for a perfect 10! This is not just for fun, but because we use zip ties on "Mighty Thundar" to keep it from leaving a trail of expensive, but not terribly fast stuff all over the track. No, wait, Shannon goes fast on the same basic machinery, so let's change that to "leaving a trail of stuff..." .

Have we made it to page six yet???

[Clarkie]

I completely agree with Chris Weed and everyone else who wants the rules to be followed.

For the board and the president, can I ask why the riders in Hastings were fined for $50? Was it due to the rider being on a "illegal bike" or was it something else? Also, if that is the reason isn't the penalty clearly defined in the rulebook for riding an illegal bike?

Just trying to clear things up as I plan on running SS classes as my main classes next year, and I would like a clear defined rule for running illegal mods. I currently run in the back of the SS pack and wont even run an illegal windscreen on my bike. I read the rulebook the last two years, attended the rule change meeting, and try to follow the rules as I best understand. Thanks in advance!


Casey,

You keep asking questions that have already been answered. Glenn had already answered this question on July 14th. Here is what was said:

Personally, I am 100% comfortable with the decision as it was made.

Here is what was found:

(2) Yamaha R1's were found to have aftermarket ram air tubes

(1) Yamaha R6 was found to have the crankcase vented to the atmosphere, where the stock configuration has it vented to the airbox. FWIW, this is not the same as the modification that Dave (MotoSix) mentioned that has been proven to be a performance enhancer.

Here are a few relevant issues:

2.2.2.C.10.d states:
Quote:
Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.

Retaining "stock internal area and overall shape" is a somewhat subjective measurement of compliance.

Additionally, re-quoting what CWeed referenced (emphasis added):
Quote:
Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in...

means that it is still up to our discretion regarding whether or not these modifications resulted in a performance advantage.

Regarding the air tubes - Are they different? Yes. But, is different always better? Not necessarily. I'll bet everything I own that Yamaha puts more R&D behind the shape and size of their ducts than Sharkskins does. Just like the kids putting a big wing on the back of a Honda Civic - it's definitely different, but not a performance advantage. In fact they are a huge disadvantage to top speed and fuel efficiency.

Regarding the crankcase breather - also not necessarily a performance gain. In the stock configuration the vent is routed to the airbox between the air filter and the throttle bodies. This area sees high vacuum under wide open throttle conditions and this actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. This vacuum is a performance enhancer, all the ultra-high performance engines in F1 and the like actually run a pump that is designed to run the crankcase at as much as 18" of vacuum so there is less air for the crankshaft to push out of the way. Venting the breather to the atmosphere results in a loss of this vacuum, and this could be actually be a performance disadvantage. The modification Dave (MotoSix) mentioned is something that can be done to increase the vacuum of the crankcase on GSXR's. That was not found this weekend.

Tumbleweed wrote:
Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping.

Possibly because they are cheaper than OEM parts damaged in an accident, or to allow the OEM parts to be set aside along with the OEM bodywork to prevent them from being damaged.

In summary, while these items are violations, the board simply does not feel that the nature of the violations and the gains (if ANY) enjoyed by the riders justify a complete disqualification from the days events and loss of all points-to-date in those classes.



You guys are combining both the Hastings infractions and the protest in Pueblo together. You can't do that! They are completely separate.

My thoughts on Hastings,

Section 13 of the MRA rule book states in 13 D "Violations of technical and safety requirements judeged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. ( MOST PEOPLE STOP READING AT THIS POINT) Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension".

The violations that were found in my opinion could not be proven to result in a performance advantage. This is why only a fine was given. I'm not an engine builder, or own a dyno or have worked on motorcycles all my life. However, to make my decision I talked with SEVERAL long time MRA members, mechanics, and board members to help me with my decision.

Thoughts on the current rule book,

In my opinion there are several parts of the rule book that need to be clearer. We will address those issues in the 2009 rule book.


Now to the protest in Pueblo made by Chris Weed,

12.3 e The written protest must specify the rules or procedures that are in question, to include page number and item number from the rulebook. Scoring protest must be in writing,but do not need a rule book references.


Simply put Chris did not follow these guidelines in filing the protest so the protest was thrown out. As the VP of Rules and Tech it's not my job to judge a person on why or why not they should protest another rider or give my opinion to do so. I need to remain impartial and will do so throughout this process.



Now on a personal note,

The MRA voted me in to be the 2008 MRA VP of Rules and Tech. YOU, THE MRA VOTED ME IN! If, you think that I'm doing a poor job then please step up and run for my position for 2009.

Then YOU can spend countless hours going to meetings, responding to email, PMs and phone calls just so the MRA can ride around a race track and have fun. Then on race day YOU can spend most of your time teching bikes checking equipment for those loose bolts, leaky forks and warn out break pads. Then you can drop everything when someone crashes to get them ready to get back on the track when you are just taking your tire warmers off on second call for your race.

I am not complaining because I actually enjoy doing this and making sure that everyone has fun on the track and does it safely! But if someone actually thinks they can do it better, then step up to the plate next year and I will just enjoy racing and following the rules that keep all of us safe. Do you hear me complain when I don't have time to practice? NO, or the time I put into this club so you can race? NO. or the times when I get yelled at or bashed because I make YOU follow the helmet rules? NO! It's time to stop bashing the board and start coming up with solutions to help us the MRA move forward.

Obviously, everyone that has been posting on this forum is passionate about this sport and I think at this point the Board has heard everyone's Opinions and we may need to agree to disagree at this point and move on. I would suggest that each and everyone of you attend the 2009 Rules book commitee meeting that Jim Brewer will be having soon.

Thanks,
Ray-Ray










I'm just quoting Ray Ray cause it is a really long post and I want this thread to get to 10 pages :lol:

But seriously, i agree with the 'intent' idea, so why no come up with a list of mods that people can vote to allow at the rules meeting, things like
double bubble
airtubes
kit ecu's
aftermarket master cylinders
adding a zip tie to help tidy up your wiring harness
aftermarket subframe
etc etc etc

If you arent at the rules meeting and cast your vote you cant complain, simple

some of these things (and many more) are a modification of either convenience or cost (cheaper), to me if you change something to make life easier at the track (like making a spacer or something that lets you get your rear wheel on without cursing for 10 minutes about the brake capiler and pads) for you that does NOT make your bike have a advantage over another it should be allowed, if you replaced an OEM part with an aftermarket part (ducts or subframe) because the OEM's want way too much money for the stock replacement part, it shuld be allowed.

Racing is far too expensive as it is, cutting costs saves us money and allows us to keep racing, if i can spend $100 on an aftermarket subframe to save myself $750 on a new Suzuki OEM one it should be allowed, the OEM stuff is almost as light as lets face it we could all probably skip a meal and save more weight.

I say get rid of some of the BS rules that just cause controversy, and maybe tighten up some of the classes and bikes that are elligible in them, there are several bikes that shouldnt be allowed in a particular class, but you cant blame the rider as they are just following the rules













......... come on 10 pages woohoo! :lol:








Teri and I second Mr. C's push for a perfect 10! This is not just for fun, but because we use zip ties on "Mighty Thundar" to keep it from leaving a trail of expensive, but not terribly fast stuff all over the track. No, wait, Shannon goes fast on the same basic machinery, so let's change that to "leaving a trail of stuff..." .

Have we made it to page six yet???



should be close to page 6 by now :D

[benfoxmra95]

I completely agree with Chris Weed and everyone else who wants the rules to be followed.

For the board and the president, can I ask why the riders in Hastings were fined for $50? Was it due to the rider being on a "illegal bike" or was it something else? Also, if that is the reason isn't the penalty clearly defined in the rulebook for riding an illegal bike?

Just trying to clear things up as I plan on running SS classes as my main classes next year, and I would like a clear defined rule for running illegal mods. I currently run in the back of the SS pack and wont even run an illegal windscreen on my bike. I read the rulebook the last two years, attended the rule change meeting, and try to follow the rules as I best understand. Thanks in advance!


Casey,

You keep asking questions that have already been answered. Glenn had already answered this question on July 14th. Here is what was said:

Personally, I am 100% comfortable with the decision as it was made.

Here is what was found:

(2) Yamaha R1's were found to have aftermarket ram air tubes

(1) Yamaha R6 was found to have the crankcase vented to the atmosphere, where the stock configuration has it vented to the airbox. FWIW, this is not the same as the modification that Dave (MotoSix) mentioned that has been proven to be a performance enhancer.

Here are a few relevant issues:

2.2.2.C.10.d states:
Quote:
Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.

Retaining "stock internal area and overall shape" is a somewhat subjective measurement of compliance.

Additionally, re-quoting what CWeed referenced (emphasis added):
Quote:
Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in...

means that it is still up to our discretion regarding whether or not these modifications resulted in a performance advantage.

Regarding the air tubes - Are they different? Yes. But, is different always better? Not necessarily. I'll bet everything I own that Yamaha puts more R&D behind the shape and size of their ducts than Sharkskins does. Just like the kids putting a big wing on the back of a Honda Civic - it's definitely different, but not a performance advantage. In fact they are a huge disadvantage to top speed and fuel efficiency.

Regarding the crankcase breather - also not necessarily a performance gain. In the stock configuration the vent is routed to the airbox between the air filter and the throttle bodies. This area sees high vacuum under wide open throttle conditions and this actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. This vacuum is a performance enhancer, all the ultra-high performance engines in F1 and the like actually run a pump that is designed to run the crankcase at as much as 18" of vacuum so there is less air for the crankshaft to push out of the way. Venting the breather to the atmosphere results in a loss of this vacuum, and this could be actually be a performance disadvantage. The modification Dave (MotoSix) mentioned is something that can be done to increase the vacuum of the crankcase on GSXR's. That was not found this weekend.

Tumbleweed wrote:
Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping.

Possibly because they are cheaper than OEM parts damaged in an accident, or to allow the OEM parts to be set aside along with the OEM bodywork to prevent them from being damaged.

In summary, while these items are violations, the board simply does not feel that the nature of the violations and the gains (if ANY) enjoyed by the riders justify a complete disqualification from the days events and loss of all points-to-date in those classes.



You guys are combining both the Hastings infractions and the protest in Pueblo together. You can't do that! They are completely separate.

My thoughts on Hastings,

Section 13 of the MRA rule book states in 13 D "Violations of technical and safety requirements judeged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. ( MOST PEOPLE STOP READING AT THIS POINT) Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension".

The violations that were found in my opinion could not be proven to result in a performance advantage. This is why only a fine was given. I'm not an engine builder, or own a dyno or have worked on motorcycles all my life. However, to make my decision I talked with SEVERAL long time MRA members, mechanics, and board members to help me with my decision.

Thoughts on the current rule book,

In my opinion there are several parts of the rule book that need to be clearer. We will address those issues in the 2009 rule book.


Now to the protest in Pueblo made by Chris Weed,

12.3 e The written protest must specify the rules or procedures that are in question, to include page number and item number from the rulebook. Scoring protest must be in writing,but do not need a rule book references.


Simply put Chris did not follow these guidelines in filing the protest so the protest was thrown out. As the VP of Rules and Tech it's not my job to judge a person on why or why not they should protest another rider or give my opinion to do so. I need to remain impartial and will do so throughout this process.



Now on a personal note,

The MRA voted me in to be the 2008 MRA VP of Rules and Tech. YOU, THE MRA VOTED ME IN! If, you think that I'm doing a poor job then please step up and run for my position for 2009.

Then YOU can spend countless hours going to meetings, responding to email, PMs and phone calls just so the MRA can ride around a race track and have fun. Then on race day YOU can spend most of your time teching bikes checking equipment for those loose bolts, leaky forks and warn out break pads. Then you can drop everything when someone crashes to get them ready to get back on the track when you are just taking your tire warmers off on second call for your race.

I am not complaining because I actually enjoy doing this and making sure that everyone has fun on the track and does it safely! But if someone actually thinks they can do it better, then step up to the plate next year and I will just enjoy racing and following the rules that keep all of us safe. Do you hear me complain when I don't have time to practice? NO, or the time I put into this club so you can race? NO. or the times when I get yelled at or bashed because I make YOU follow the helmet rules? NO! It's time to stop bashing the board and start coming up with solutions to help us the MRA move forward.

Obviously, everyone that has been posting on this forum is passionate about this sport and I think at this point the Board has heard everyone's Opinions and we may need to agree to disagree at this point and move on. I would suggest that each and everyone of you attend the 2009 Rules book commitee meeting that Jim Brewer will be having soon.

Thanks,
Ray-Ray










I'm just quoting Ray Ray cause it is a really long post and I want this thread to get to 10 pages :lol:

But seriously, i agree with the 'intent' idea, so why no come up with a list of mods that people can vote to allow at the rules meeting, things like
double bubble
airtubes
kit ecu's
aftermarket master cylinders
adding a zip tie to help tidy up your wiring harness
aftermarket subframe
etc etc etc

If you arent at the rules meeting and cast your vote you cant complain, simple

some of these things (and many more) are a modification of either convenience or cost (cheaper), to me if you change something to make life easier at the track (like making a spacer or something that lets you get your rear wheel on without cursing for 10 minutes about the brake capiler and pads) for you that does NOT make your bike have a advantage over another it should be allowed, if you replaced an OEM part with an aftermarket part (ducts or subframe) because the OEM's want way too much money for the stock replacement part, it shuld be allowed.

Racing is far too expensive as it is, cutting costs saves us money and allows us to keep racing, if i can spend $100 on an aftermarket subframe to save myself $750 on a new Suzuki OEM one it should be allowed, the OEM stuff is almost as light as lets face it we could all probably skip a meal and save more weight.

I say get rid of some of the BS rules that just cause controversy, and maybe tighten up some of the classes and bikes that are elligible in them, there are several bikes that shouldnt be allowed in a particular class, but you cant blame the rider as they are just following the rules













......... come on 10 pages woohoo! :lol:


I think 2850 views is way more cool than 6 pages.... Lets get that up to 3000 then we'll have something.



We're already allowed aftermarket subframes clark..? jeez....read the effen rule book already..... or do you have some supersecret way that you want to interject a new subframe rule this year, where you'll be able to hide your nitrous..?

I know you want to be able to use your subframe as a containment system for your nitrous, all the tubing will be pressureized. I got you, you sneaky little kiwi.

[benfoxmra95]

[the OEM stuff is almost as light as lets face it we could all probably skip a meal and save more weight.

For what it's worth, I would be willing to make up protest papers that would be available in the race day office that includes a box for every single piece of information that is needed for a legitimate protest. All one has to do is "handwrite" everything in.

I highly discourage this.....

[marty]

I completely agree with Chris Weed and everyone else who wants the rules to be followed.

For the board and the president, can I ask why the riders in Hastings were fined for $50? Was it due to the rider being on a "illegal bike" or was it something else? Also, if that is the reason isn't the penalty clearly defined in the rulebook for riding an illegal bike?

Just trying to clear things up as I plan on running SS classes as my main classes next year, and I would like a clear defined rule for running illegal mods. I currently run in the back of the SS pack and wont even run an illegal windscreen on my bike. I read the rulebook the last two years, attended the rule change meeting, and try to follow the rules as I best understand. Thanks in advance!


Casey,

You keep asking questions that have already been answered. Glenn had already answered this question on July 14th. Here is what was said:

Personally, I am 100% comfortable with the decision as it was made.

Here is what was found:

(2) Yamaha R1's were found to have aftermarket ram air tubes

(1) Yamaha R6 was found to have the crankcase vented to the atmosphere, where the stock configuration has it vented to the airbox. FWIW, this is not the same as the modification that Dave (MotoSix) mentioned that has been proven to be a performance enhancer.

Here are a few relevant issues:

2.2.2.C.10.d states:
Quote:
Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.

Retaining "stock internal area and overall shape" is a somewhat subjective measurement of compliance.

Additionally, re-quoting what CWeed referenced (emphasis added):
Quote:
Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in...

means that it is still up to our discretion regarding whether or not these modifications resulted in a performance advantage.

Regarding the air tubes - Are they different? Yes. But, is different always better? Not necessarily. I'll bet everything I own that Yamaha puts more R&D behind the shape and size of their ducts than Sharkskins does. Just like the kids putting a big wing on the back of a Honda Civic - it's definitely different, but not a performance advantage. In fact they are a huge disadvantage to top speed and fuel efficiency.

Regarding the crankcase breather - also not necessarily a performance gain. In the stock configuration the vent is routed to the airbox between the air filter and the throttle bodies. This area sees high vacuum under wide open throttle conditions and this actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. This vacuum is a performance enhancer, all the ultra-high performance engines in F1 and the like actually run a pump that is designed to run the crankcase at as much as 18" of vacuum so there is less air for the crankshaft to push out of the way. Venting the breather to the atmosphere results in a loss of this vacuum, and this could be actually be a performance disadvantage. The modification Dave (MotoSix) mentioned is something that can be done to increase the vacuum of the crankcase on GSXR's. That was not found this weekend.

Tumbleweed wrote:
Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping.

Possibly because they are cheaper than OEM parts damaged in an accident, or to allow the OEM parts to be set aside along with the OEM bodywork to prevent them from being damaged.

In summary, while these items are violations, the board simply does not feel that the nature of the violations and the gains (if ANY) enjoyed by the riders justify a complete disqualification from the days events and loss of all points-to-date in those classes.



You guys are combining both the Hastings infractions and the protest in Pueblo together. You can't do that! They are completely separate.

My thoughts on Hastings,

Section 13 of the MRA rule book states in 13 D "Violations of technical and safety requirements judeged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. ( MOST PEOPLE STOP READING AT THIS POINT) Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension".

The violations that were found in my opinion could not be proven to result in a performance advantage. This is why only a fine was given. I'm not an engine builder, or own a dyno or have worked on motorcycles all my life. However, to make my decision I talked with SEVERAL long time MRA members, mechanics, and board members to help me with my decision.

Thoughts on the current rule book,

In my opinion there are several parts of the rule book that need to be clearer. We will address those issues in the 2009 rule book.


Now to the protest in Pueblo made by Chris Weed,

12.3 e The written protest must specify the rules or procedures that are in question, to include page number and item number from the rulebook. Scoring protest must be in writing,but do not need a rule book references.


Simply put Chris did not follow these guidelines in filing the protest so the protest was thrown out. As the VP of Rules and Tech it's not my job to judge a person on why or why not they should protest another rider or give my opinion to do so. I need to remain impartial and will do so throughout this process.



Now on a personal note,

The MRA voted me in to be the 2008 MRA VP of Rules and Tech. YOU, THE MRA VOTED ME IN! If, you think that I'm doing a poor job then please step up and run for my position for 2009.

Then YOU can spend countless hours going to meetings, responding to email, PMs and phone calls just so the MRA can ride around a race track and have fun. Then on race day YOU can spend most of your time teching bikes checking equipment for those loose bolts, leaky forks and warn out break pads. Then you can drop everything when someone crashes to get them ready to get back on the track when you are just taking your tire warmers off on second call for your race.

I am not complaining because I actually enjoy doing this and making sure that everyone has fun on the track and does it safely! But if someone actually thinks they can do it better, then step up to the plate next year and I will just enjoy racing and following the rules that keep all of us safe. Do you hear me complain when I don't have time to practice? NO, or the time I put into this club so you can race? NO. or the times when I get yelled at or bashed because I make YOU follow the helmet rules? NO! It's time to stop bashing the board and start coming up with solutions to help us the MRA move forward.

Obviously, everyone that has been posting on this forum is passionate about this sport and I think at this point the Board has heard everyone's Opinions and we may need to agree to disagree at this point and move on. I would suggest that each and everyone of you attend the 2009 Rules book commitee meeting that Jim Brewer will be having soon.

Thanks,
Ray-Ray










I'm just quoting Ray Ray cause it is a really long post and I want this thread to get to 10 pages :lol:

But seriously, i agree with the 'intent' idea, so why no come up with a list of mods that people can vote to allow at the rules meeting, things like
double bubble
airtubes
kit ecu's
aftermarket master cylinders
adding a zip tie to help tidy up your wiring harness
aftermarket subframe
etc etc etc

If you arent at the rules meeting and cast your vote you cant complain, simple

some of these things (and many more) are a modification of either convenience or cost (cheaper), to me if you change something to make life easier at the track (like making a spacer or something that lets you get your rear wheel on without cursing for 10 minutes about the brake capiler and pads) for you that does NOT make your bike have a advantage over another it should be allowed, if you replaced an OEM part with an aftermarket part (ducts or subframe) because the OEM's want way too much money for the stock replacement part, it shuld be allowed.

Racing is far too expensive as it is, cutting costs saves us money and allows us to keep racing, if i can spend $100 on an aftermarket subframe to save myself $750 on a new Suzuki OEM one it should be allowed, the OEM stuff is almost as light as lets face it we could all probably skip a meal and save more weight.

I say get rid of some of the BS rules that just cause controversy, and maybe tighten up some of the classes and bikes that are elligible in them, there are several bikes that shouldnt be allowed in a particular class, but you cant blame the rider as they are just following the rules













......... come on 10 pages woohoo! :lol:


I think 2850 views is way more cool than 6 pages.... Lets get that up to 3000 then we'll have something.



We're already allowed aftermarket subframes clark..? jeez....read the effen rule book already..... or do you have some supersecret way that you want to interject a new subframe rule this year, where you'll be able to hide your nitrous..?

I know you want to be able to use your subframe as a containment system for your nitrous, all the tubing will be pressureized. I got you, you sneaky little kiwi.

damn clarkie, makin' parts/spacers for your bikes, sounds like someone wants a gp bike :twisted:


come on 10 pages!

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

I won't be much help reaching 10 pages, but I'd like to discuss how to fix this situation for 2009. I started a basenote over in the Rules & Tech section here:
http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=7197

[dragos13]

Casey,

You keep asking questions that have already been answered. Glenn had already answered this question on July 14th. Here is what was said:

Personally, I am 100% comfortable with the decision as it was made.

Here is what was found:

(2) Yamaha R1's were found to have aftermarket ram air tubes

(1) Yamaha R6 was found to have the crankcase vented to the atmosphere, where the stock configuration has it vented to the airbox. FWIW, this is not the same as the modification that Dave (MotoSix) mentioned that has been proven to be a performance enhancer.

Here are a few relevant issues:

2.2.2.C.10.d states:
Quote:
Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.

Retaining "stock internal area and overall shape" is a somewhat subjective measurement of compliance.

Additionally, re-quoting what CWeed referenced (emphasis added):
Quote:
Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in...

means that it is still up to our discretion regarding whether or not these modifications resulted in a performance advantage.

Regarding the air tubes - Are they different? Yes. But, is different always better? Not necessarily. I'll bet everything I own that Yamaha puts more R&D behind the shape and size of their ducts than Sharkskins does. Just like the kids putting a big wing on the back of a Honda Civic - it's definitely different, but not a performance advantage. In fact they are a huge disadvantage to top speed and fuel efficiency.

Regarding the crankcase breather - also not necessarily a performance gain. In the stock configuration the vent is routed to the airbox between the air filter and the throttle bodies. This area sees high vacuum under wide open throttle conditions and this actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. This vacuum is a performance enhancer, all the ultra-high performance engines in F1 and the like actually run a pump that is designed to run the crankcase at as much as 18" of vacuum so there is less air for the crankshaft to push out of the way. Venting the breather to the atmosphere results in a loss of this vacuum, and this could be actually be a performance disadvantage. The modification Dave (MotoSix) mentioned is something that can be done to increase the vacuum of the crankcase on GSXR's. That was not found this weekend.

Tumbleweed wrote:
Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping.

Possibly because they are cheaper than OEM parts damaged in an accident, or to allow the OEM parts to be set aside along with the OEM bodywork to prevent them from being damaged.

In summary, while these items are violations, the board simply does not feel that the nature of the violations and the gains (if ANY) enjoyed by the riders justify a complete disqualification from the days events and loss of all points-to-date in those classes.



You guys are combining both the Hastings infractions and the protest in Pueblo together. You can't do that! They are completely separate.

My thoughts on Hastings,

Section 13 of the MRA rule book states in 13 D "Violations of technical and safety requirements judeged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. ( MOST PEOPLE STOP READING AT THIS POINT) Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension".

The violations that were found in my opinion could not be proven to result in a performance advantage. This is why only a fine was given. I'm not an engine builder, or own a dyno or have worked on motorcycles all my life. However, to make my decision I talked with SEVERAL long time MRA members, mechanics, and board members to help me with my decision.

Thoughts on the current rule book,

In my opinion there are several parts of the rule book that need to be clearer. We will address those issues in the 2009 rule book.


Now to the protest in Pueblo made by Chris Weed,

12.3 e The written protest must specify the rules or procedures that are in question, to include page number and item number from the rulebook. Scoring protest must be in writing,but do not need a rule book references.


Simply put Chris did not follow these guidelines in filing the protest so the protest was thrown out. As the VP of Rules and Tech it's not my job to judge a person on why or why not they should protest another rider or give my opinion to do so. I need to remain impartial and will do so throughout this process.



Now on a personal note,

The MRA voted me in to be the 2008 MRA VP of Rules and Tech. YOU, THE MRA VOTED ME IN! If, you think that I'm doing a poor job then please step up and run for my position for 2009.

Then YOU can spend countless hours going to meetings, responding to email, PMs and phone calls just so the MRA can ride around a race track and have fun. Then on race day YOU can spend most of your time teching bikes checking equipment for those loose bolts, leaky forks and warn out break pads. Then you can drop everything when someone crashes to get them ready to get back on the track when you are just taking your tire warmers off on second call for your race.

I am not complaining because I actually enjoy doing this and making sure that everyone has fun on the track and does it safely! But if someone actually thinks they can do it better, then step up to the plate next year and I will just enjoy racing and following the rules that keep all of us safe. Do you hear me complain when I don't have time to practice? NO, or the time I put into this club so you can race? NO. or the times when I get yelled at or bashed because I make YOU follow the helmet rules? NO! It's time to stop bashing the board and start coming up with solutions to help us the MRA move forward.

Obviously, everyone that has been posting on this forum is passionate about this sport and I think at this point the Board has heard everyone's Opinions and we may need to agree to disagree at this point and move on. I would suggest that each and everyone of you attend the 2009 Rules book commitee meeting that Jim Brewer will be having soon.

Thanks,
Ray-Ray

Ray-Ray

I guess my comments have been made based on Section 13.C.

"Upon entering a motorcycle in any MRA class, the rider is responsible for their otorcycle meeting class requirements. If at any time the entered motorcycle is found to be illegal for the entered class, the rider will forfeit points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class."

To my understanding, the bikes in Hastings were fined due to something "illegal" on the bikes, not due to a violation of tech and safety equipment. I have to ask how we know to apply section C or section D. The wording doesnt seem clear to me as it seems they are in violation of SuperSport class requirements, regardless of intent or measurable gain of HP. To me, section D would apply to violations that are normally inspected during tech inspection. Section C seems to apply to a bike that is not following requirements of a specific class, IE Supersport.

I already see that Jim Brewer started a post addressing this exact issue. I will keep my opinion over there for now on. Trust me Ray-Ray, I would never want to do your position. You are over there all the time dealing with racers, and thats not what I want my weekend about. You do great work and its highly appreciated. I am not making this personal against you, it was just a mis-understanding on my part about how to interpret the rules. We'll all just have to address it at the next rules change meeting. I voted for you last year and I would vote for you again. Thanks for taking the time and going over each issue. See you in Pueblo!

[glenngsxr]

I just want to say my name is Brian and I am a cheater.

Wow, that was hard to admit but they say the first step to knowing you have a problem is to admit it :oops: .

I have a Super Sport non-compliant windscreen. After much soul searching I am able to face this fact.

I have faced my demons and will resolve them internally.

Thanks for all the support !!!

Brian






(I'm pullin for page 10 Clarkie)






For what it is worth the most accurate thing in this discussion is:
If you do or do not like the rules. GET INVOLVED!!! Put some effort in or quit bitching. :D

Thanks Brian! I also have an aftermarket windsceeen. I am also a cheater. Someone needs to protect me as well. Hell, you can take my points and monies, cause I haven't earned any. ha!

[Tumbleweed]

Posting for somebody else who didn't want their name to be involved in this discussion. THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS SO DO NOT ATTACK ME.

Well I think the cheatin thread has officially gone to hell.

I do think Brewer has found the two sections of the rule book that contradict eachother in C and D one saying you’ll lose all your points the other saying you could be fined. So a rule change will be made for next year to hopefully help the situation. Fine.

The part I still don’t quite understand is that…

A protest was filed and deemed invalid, fine. However upon inspecting Danny’s SS bike was there or wasn’t there an illegal part (a double bubble windscreen) found on that motorcycle? Whether or not a protest was filed if any board member would have seen it on his/her own on the track wouldn’t that rider have some consequences for racing with it?

Wouldn’t it also serve the board members direct recollection that the same rider just one weekend before was one of the 3 that was found with OTHER illegal parts on his bike and wouldn’t you assume based on a “judgment call” by our board members that they might uphold the rulebook by fining him or removing his points for the weekend for having a 2nd offense in as many weekends?

Or even that at the end of last year Danny, the same rider, was found to be racing in ROR and AM classes, even if he was told by someone he could do it, it CLEARLY states in the rulebook that he signed off on that he read and understood that you may not do that. Also that the weekend before THAT race he was also the same person who caused the entire “red flag rule” debacle.

Now if the board is going to use “judgment calls” wouldn’t you take into account the rider’s previous record? Wouldn’t it be in the best interest of the club to say “Wait a minute, this guy HAS gotten away with a lot of stuff. The protest against him is invalid BUT he was using this illegal part on his bike and there SHOULD be a consequence for it”? What was his consequence for using the illegal double bubble windscreen? Anything?

We all know what would have happened if it was a syndicate member.

Somebody stop me if I’m wrong.

[Ray-Ray]

Posting for somebody else who didn't want their name to be involved in this discussion. THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS SO DO NOT ATTACK ME.

[color=red]Well I think the cheatin thread has officially gone to hell.

Me to!


I do think Brewer has found the two sections of the rule book that contradict eachother in C and D one saying you’ll lose all your points the other saying you could be fined. So a rule change will be made for next year to hopefully help the situation. Fine.

Exactly what I want to see changed for next year.

[dave.gallant]

So, while I might not have the Gospel memorized as I did in years past (rulebook), but do I read the above to mean that the VP of Rules and Tech and/or the Track Marshal for any given event are powerless to enforce penalties for technical infractions to the rulebook independent of a racer protest?

In other words, {Tech Official} see slicks on a Supersport bike on the grid. {Tech Official} can't DQ him/her on the spot?

Really??

[dave.gallant]

Here we go. I thought I remembered this wording:



Section 6 of The Good Book:

The MRA Technical Staff also reserves the right to
perform class suitability inspections, including inspection of internal engine and transmission components at any time during the race day.

...

The same rider may be inspected twice during the course of one MRA race weekend. More than one rider may be checked per Supersport race, and this is at the discretion of the MRA VP of Rules & Tech.





Section 12 of The Good Book:

By entering an event, each rider agrees to make each motorcycle on which he or she starts or joins a race available for inspection by the MRA Technical Inspection staff, whether the inspection is initiated by another rider entered in the class, or initiated by MRA officials.

...

MRA officials may assess more severe penalties for failure to comply with these covenants than would be assessed if a protest were upheld or the motorcycle were found to not be in compliance with the applicable rules, standards and/or limits.


So, while it is a bit of a tangent, the above seems to spell out that the MRA (acting as an individual in the VP of Rules & Tech or Track Marshal) or as a group (MRA Board) can inspect, tear down, disqualify any entered motorcycle at almost any time no matter how it was "initiated".

This, in my opinion, is as it should be.

[rforsythe]

I agree with Dave's point of view, though it does open up a new can of worms. Let's say Rider A protests Rider B, but doesn't do it the right way (info missing from form, or whatever). The protest has merit, but gets thrown out on technicality. At what point does the official then get to say "the protest is crap, but I think this part's illegal too so I'm gonna DQ you"? What's the point of even filing a valid protest at that point? Or what's to stop the official from ignoring it completely even if they had the authority to do something about it? At what point (this can go on all day) do the riders just start expecting the officials to spot the obvious things, and if they somehow don't then they're playing favorites?

I can't remember if the TM or VP of R&T have authority to DQ based on a grid spot check or not, to be honest; if that authority even exists, I certainly never exercised it. I also don't have the book memorized anymore either. But even if they do have that ability, at some point that authority or responsibility has to transfer to the riders themselves. If a protest gets thrown out on a technicality, the official should not be able to then say "yeah but I don't like your bike anyway so *smack*".

The lines of who can protest or initiate the process need to be very clearly defined, even if it means that the officials cannot also initiate the protest process themselves (unless they're a racer in that class). I believe that is defined now, but I am not 100% sure.

**edit** I see Dave posted up the relevant text, so that helps clear it up. But my first paragraph still stands - what happens if a protest is thrown out for an obviously illegal part, and nothing is done when the official has the ability to levy the penalty on knowledge of the part alone?

Does something need to be added that if the item in question is being checked as a result of a peer protest, that the process can only then follow the formal protest rules (including the possibility of it being thrown out on technicality) and that the board's discretion to penalize that part goes away for that weekend? Just seems like this would get rid of the possibility, or even appearance, of favoritism or bias.

[Lel399]

Section 6 - TECHNICAL INSPECTION
The rider bears the responsibility of presenting a motorcycle in conformance with
all requirements!
All motorcycles and rider equipment must pass inspection by the MRA Technical Staff
before participating in any practice session, race or school. The primary emphasis of the
inspection is race worthiness of the equipment used.
Application of a Technical Inspection Approval Sticker does not imply compliance with
class requirements or technical requirements.
The burden of complying with the rules regarding class suitability and technical
requirements rests with the entrant.
It is his/her responsibility to seek approval of the Technical Inspector of any areas in
question.
The MRA Technical Staff reserves the right to inspect any race motorcycle or rider
apparel or equipment at any time during race day for compliance to MRA technical
standards and may revoke the Technical Inspection Approval Sticker of any motorcycle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 27
at any time during the race day. The MRA Technical Staff also reserves the right to
perform class suitability inspections, including inspection of internal engine and
transmission components at any time during the race day.
For at least one supersport race per event, one contestant selected randomly after the start
of the race will have the following items inspected by an MRA Technical Inspector at the
completion of the race:
*
showroom stock charging system
*
air box, air filter, velocity stacks
*
any other supersport restricted modification
The same rider may be inspected twice during the course of one MRA race weekend.
More than one rider may be checked per Supersport race, and this is at the discretion of
the MRA VP of Rules & Tech. In the event a contestant refuses post-race inspection, the
contestant will be disqualified and penalized as outlined in Section 13-D. A contestant
may choose to have his/her bike inspected for multiple classes at one time; however the
MRA will impound the bike in a suitable location between the individual races. (this
location is NOT the contestants pit area)

[Brian38]

+1 DAVE

It seems to me it's the riders responsibility but the MRA has the ability if needed.

I agree it is as it should be.

B

[rforsythe]

+1 DAVE

It seems to me it's the riders responsibility but the MRA has the ability if needed.

I agree it is as it should be.

B

Totally agree with you agreeing with Dave.

But I still ask, what happens if a rider protest is invalidated but the official knows of the illegal part anyway (likely as a result of the protest)? If they choose to ignore it based on an invalid protest, are they now complicit in cheating because they had the ability to penalize the rider and chose not to?

Scary grey area that needs to be nailed down, IMO.

[Ray-Ray]

Here we go. I thought I remembered this wording:



Section 6 of The Good Book:

The MRA Technical Staff also reserves the right to
perform class suitability inspections, including inspection of internal engine and transmission components at any time during the race day.

...

The same rider may be inspected twice during the course of one MRA race weekend. More than one rider may be checked per Supersport race, and this is at the discretion of the MRA VP of Rules & Tech.





Section 12 of The Good Book:

By entering an event, each rider agrees to make each motorcycle on which he or she starts or joins a race available for inspection by the MRA Technical Inspection staff, whether the inspection is initiated by another rider entered in the class, or initiated by MRA officials.

...

MRA officials may assess more severe penalties for failure to comply with these covenants than would be assessed if a protest were upheld or the motorcycle were found to not be in compliance with the applicable rules, standards and/or limits.


So, while it is a bit of a tangent, the above seems to spell out that the MRA (acting as an individual in the VP of Rules & Tech or Track Marshal) or as a group (MRA Board) can inspect, tear down, disqualify any entered motorcycle at almost any time no matter how it was "initiated".

This, in my opinion, is as it should be.

Thanks Dave, I stand corrected!

[The GECCO]

I agree with what Brian wrote...

The way I've always thought about this is that the VP of R&T and/or the board reserves the right to do spot inspections, etc, for any reason, but none of us is going around the pit area actively looking for things to DQ people for as I'm sure we all have better things to do on raceday. The tech inspection in the morning is strictly a safety inspection, it has nothing to do with technical legality or class suitability.

The main (not sole) responsibility for policing class suitability and other technical aspects of rules compliance should rest with the other racers in that same class, after all, you are the only people with a vested interest in making sure the other bikes in that class are in compliance.

[T Baggins]

Posting for somebody else who didn't want their name to be involved in this discussion. THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS SO DO NOT ATTACK ME.

Well I think the cheatin thread has officially gone to hell.

I do think Brewer has found the two sections of the rule book that contradict eachother in C and D one saying you’ll lose all your points the other saying you could be fined. So a rule change will be made for next year to hopefully help the situation. Fine.

The part I still don’t quite understand is that…

A protest was filed and deemed invalid, fine. However upon inspecting Danny’s SS bike was there or wasn’t there an illegal part (a double bubble windscreen) found on that motorcycle? Whether or not a protest was filed if any board member would have seen it on his/her own on the track wouldn’t that rider have some consequences for racing with it?

Wouldn’t it also serve the board members direct recollection that the same rider just one weekend before was one of the 3 that was found with OTHER illegal parts on his bike and wouldn’t you assume based on a “judgment call” by our board members that they might uphold the rulebook by fining him or removing his points for the weekend for having a 2nd offense in as many weekends?

Or even that at the end of last year Danny, the same rider, was found to be racing in ROR and AM classes, even if he was told by someone he could do it, it CLEARLY states in the rulebook that he signed off on that he read and understood that you may not do that. Also that the weekend before THAT race he was also the same person who caused the entire “red flag rule” debacle.

Now if the board is going to use “judgment calls” wouldn’t you take into account the rider’s previous record? Wouldn’t it be in the best interest of the club to say “Wait a minute, this guy HAS gotten away with a lot of stuff. The protest against him is invalid BUT he was using this illegal part on his bike and there SHOULD be a consequence for it”? What was his consequence for using the illegal double bubble windscreen? Anything?

We all know what would have happened if it was a syndicate member.

Somebody stop me if I’m wrong.

I think it is weak that somebody who had THAT MUCH to say felt it necessary to remain anonymous.

[rforsythe]

Where is the Track Marshall when all this is going on? Unless the rulebook has been changed since I was involved the Track Marshall is suppose to take care of all protest.

Lurch

Since nobody else answered him yet...

From 12.3:
T. The Track Marshal will make the decision regarding any protest.
U. The Track Marshal will make a decision regarding the penalty to be levied. In the event of an upheld protest, penalties will be assessed in accordance with Section 13.

The VP of Rules and Tech has no authority as to the decision on a protest or what the fine should be, however the VP of R&T is obviously involved in terms of doing the inspection(s) necessary.

While it is ultimately the TM's call, these things are usually done with significant input from the rest of the board as we both know...

[T Baggins]

Hey Kip,

I've got some good news and some bad news.... :lol:

[bluedevil]

I think it is weak that somebody who had THAT MUCH to say felt it necessary to remain anonymous.


With the way the truth tellers (maybe a better word Im looking for here) have been bashed in this discussion.... Are you freekin kididng me? :roll: Believe me there are more than the handfull of folks (that posted their thoughts here) that feel that way. For fear of their own political ramifications they have remained silent, and after the way people have been treated for wanting a fair club, I dont blame them for keeping their mouth shut.

[dragos13]

I understand that the protest was filed incorrectly, however it appears that Chris is the bad guy for even bringing this up. I dont blame people for wanting to remain silent, however thats not going to help make change. I think anyone who runs in the SS classes needs to speak up. Maybe he forgot some details on the protest, was there still not an illegal mod on said bike? Sure we need to just move on, but what happens to the next guy that thinks of filing a protest. Honestly it seems like he will be called a whinner, crybaby, or just be accused of trying to use the rulebook to win. Luckily I have no points or money to loose in the SS classes this season, I just dont want a re-run next year. Will a double bubble alone make you fast enough to win a race? Of course not. However, does that make the bike illegal for a SuperSport class, to my understanding it does, which would then bring Penalty Section C as a result.

Can anyone answer what decides if penalty Section C or Section D is applied to an infraction? I mean, illegal mods means a bike doesnt meet class requirements. How does that have something to do with tech and safety? I know Jim has addressed this however there are no answers over there either.

I'm not asking this in an accusing manor, I just need a more clear explanation for myself.

[Tumbleweed]

What Dion said. Not everybody wants to get bashed or dirty looks at the next race and since I've got nothing to loose I posted it for this person. I fully understand them not saying who they are. Obviously many people including myself are willing to speak up but it is not that hard to figure out somebody wanting to still get smiled at at the next race. Not everybody in this world is as abrasive as the rest of us.

[Lel399]

to comment on what Ralph was saying about now how can the board go back and slap someone a penalty when the protest was found to be invalid... well i think we missed a step.

What I believe should happen is first deem if the protest is a valid protest; if it is, then at that point an inspection takes place. If it is not, then it is not up to the club to inspect the bike.

Once the infraction is properly known about, then it IS the responsibility of the board to penalize/remove any bike that did not conform to the class.

of course hindsight is 20/20... and in this case the protest was deemed invalid, so the fact the MRA knew about the windscreen became poision. There is no great answer to this one, and I realize as tony said the board has a thankless job, but everyone on the board did choose to run for their position. :) The frustrating part is that we follow the rulebook sometimes (ie no changes mid year blah blah blah!, regardless of how antiquated) and other times we dont.

[T Baggins]

I think it is weak that somebody who had THAT MUCH to say felt it necessary to remain anonymous.


With the way the truth tellers have been bashed in this discussion.... Are you freekin kididng me? :roll: Believe me there are more than the handfull of folks (that posted their thoughts here) that feel that way. For fear of their own political ramifications they have remained silent, and after the way people have been treated for wanting a fair club, I dont blame them for keeping their mouth shut.

"truth tellers being bashed?" "political ramifications" - Are you freekin kidding ME?!?

Yes, you got us - there's a big conspiracy where the Board of Directors goes waaaaay out of their way to punish the innocent, protect the guilty and impose political sanctions on anyone who disagrees with our decisions. Give me a break! If anything I lean to the opposite extreme to make sure my prejudice doesn't get in the way of sound decision making - and there are SEVERAL on the Board who play devil's advocate when discussions get heated. Especially when we're talking about repeat offenders or other social miscreants.

I have way better things to do with my time than plot and plan conspiriacies against DARC, Syndicate and anyone else who has differing opinions than myself. I barely have enough time during the day to even follow this crap - but since it's turned into such a toilet bowl, I've felt compelled to ride this turd all the way down the drain...

You don't agree with the decision, that much is clear. We've heard you, really, but feel free to beat that dead horse some more if you want - cause there might be someone out there who isn't completely clear about your feelings on the matter. It isn't going to change a thing that's already happened. I can see that some of you have started a constructive thread relative to what should and shouldn't be done in the future. That is good.

There is a disconnect in the rulebook, clear and simple, that allowed for discretion that many of you think wasn't warranted. Close the loop hole.

Turn the tables... If Chris had been disqualified for the season (which is what I think you want to happen to Danny) over something as stupid as a windscreen (following an invalid protest no less) you guys would be going even more absolutely ape shit (if that's possible). Especially if it was Danny who filed the protest.

You honestly think the Board is going to actively pursue sanctions against anyone who speaks up? You obviously don't know or trust us (or at least some of us) even a tiny bit. If more people would speak up, AND GET INVOLVED proactively instead of just bitching all the time when you don't like somethign specific, we wouldn't be in this type of situation.

Better hope there are better candidates running for the positions in October, cause I rather doubt there will be many who choose to run again after the way WE are consistently bashed and jerked off every time we do something that we think is in the best interest of the club and somebody disagrees. We're not perfect, that much is clear - but we're not these villians that you keep portraying us to be either.

Don't know when the "official" campaigning begins, but if you want to see the MRA be a better place then you'd better start working on your resumes and acceptance speeches now.

[bluedevil]

To far Tony. Once again no one is claiming some over the top political conspiracy. Believe it or not there are political ramifications in this club. It has nothing to do with trust in the board or that we dont appreciate the hundreds of things that each member of the board does to make this a better place. You think that things are all in good fun (and for some thats al it is), but for many that is in fact not the case and there is more than fun involved, and Once again you have now made it personal as a DARC VS MRA board, which is TOTAL BS and the entire point of why this HUGE issue came to be. It doesnt need to be personal, it just needs to get fixed now. Additionally, you go even further as to repeat once again that we are bithchers and complainers for simply trying to make racing fair, which eludes to what was just said, and that is people will not post their feelings on this issue because they simply get called a whiner, cry baby, poo poo head.
Now Im not going to participate in another small battle in this larger war, but in fact this thread was only even begun to to a comment made in a direction of Chris, that he had already considered a dead issue after his rashioning at Pueblo in the pits.

Point your anger for this pot being stirred in another direction. Please press breast feathers back to their normal downward position.

[rforsythe]

What I believe should happen is first deem if the protest is a valid protest; if it is, then at that point an inspection takes place. If it is not, then it is not up to the club to inspect the bike.

Once the infraction is properly known about, then it IS the responsibility of the board to penalize/remove any bike that did not conform to the class.

"Properly known about" is the issue. If it's a legit protest then the rest should be self explanatory, and the parts that are not are being hashed out in the R&T forum. It's the "improper protest" bit that gets sticky, since then the officials may know of an illegal part, but the protest can't be used, so then what to do about it...

I started a thread in R&T on this specific issue, including a first stab at an addition that would make this pretty black and white on what a thrown out protest implies for everyone involved. I welcome comments on it.

[T Baggins]

Too far? Only if you say so...

I'm trying to make a point here - using the "Theater of the Absurd". Every time something doesn't go "so and so's way" it's a big ridiculous shit storm. There have been several people, myself included, who have attempted to steer this thread into something productive - but to no avail. And when it turns into a "political conspiracy" thing - I take it personally because not a single one of you knows what goes on behind the scenes and HOW HARD we try to make the right decision EVERY SINGLE TIME. Obviously we aren't always successful, but it's not for a lack of effort. And then to be constantly criticized for our efforts is disheartening to say the least.

If there are Political Ramifications as you say, then I must be completely retarded and blind. I have NEVER been aware of any sanction or other penalty placed upon a racer for speaking his mind. If there's more that I should know, feel free to tell me about it privately - cause I WANT to know.

I don't think things are all in good fun. Yes, I give that appearance whenever possible because that is my personality and I try to be the voice of reason when everyone else is losing their minds. I realize this is serious, and that the situation could have been handled differently - but it wasn't and I don't think 7 pages of bitching in cyberspace is going to fix it. Altering the rule book so this doesn't happen again is going to fix it.

I'm not trying to start a small battle - I'm trying to put things into perspective - and apparently I'm failing at that as well. In the 20 years I've been involved in the MRA, there have been but a very few people who I truly didn't like or have EVER been upset or angry with - and you aren't one of them (neither is Chris, or the Syndicate guys, etc...).

I'm not angry, I'm discouraged - but I'll have my breast feathers plucked tonight just to be certain they don't have the appearance of being ruffled in the future.

[Wild Cheetah 612]

I'll have my breast feathers plucked tonight...
Can I watch?http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Drooling/drooling-5.gif

To any and all:
Please call me with your input if you feel uncomfortable posting up here. I want to hear what you feel so I can better do my job. 720-253-4727


ps-anyone got a dishwasher to sell me cheap?

[Clarkie]

but since it's turned into such a toilet bowl, I've felt compelled to ride this turd all the way down the drain....

I almost fell over laughing when I read that :lol:




woohoo just 3 more pages to go! 8)

[OConnell]

What I believe should happen is first deem if the protest is a valid protest; if it is, then at that point an inspection takes place. If it is not, then it is not up to the club to inspect the bike.

Once the infraction is properly known about, then it IS the responsibility of the board to penalize/remove any bike that did not conform to the class.

"Properly known about" is the issue. If it's a legit protest then the rest should be self explanatory, and the parts that are not are being hashed out in the R&T forum. It's the "improper protest" bit that gets sticky, since then the officials may know of an illegal part, but the protest can't be used, so then what to do about it...

I started a thread in R&T on this specific issue, including a first stab at an addition that would make this pretty black and white on what a thrown out protest implies for everyone involved. I welcome comments on it.

I'm with Jason on this one. The protest is validated, and processed or thrown out. If it is processed the inspection happens, if it is thrown out then no inspection. At that point it is just hearsay that the protested part may be present. If no inspection happens, then nobody can blame the TM or the VP R&T for not penalizing.

[Blue Junk]

woohoo just 3 more pages to go! 8)

:lol:
Looking forward to all of them... :wink:

[bluedevil]

I don't think things are all in good fun. Yes, I give that appearance whenever possible because that is my personality and I try to be the voice of reason when everyone else is losing their minds. I realize this is serious, and that the situation could have been handled differently - but it wasn't and I don't think 7 pages of bitching in cyberspace is going to fix it. Altering the rule book so this doesn't happen again is going to fix it.

I'm not angry, I'm discouraged - but I'll have my breast feathers plucked tonight just to be certain they don't have the appearance of being ruffled in the future.



I agree with you that no one will change any ones mind by this discussion, that much is clear, its unfortunate that a few people will have a few less “smiles in the pits” coming their way, but in the end became a means to an end, resulting in 3 rules change threads to discuss how we as a club can fix it going forward. It was passionately felt that change in our rule book and how we as a club go about enforcing those rules was needed, and it appears that those 1st steps are being taken toward resolving those issues. We have never felt it was Us vs the MRA board, and I feel bad that it was not better communicated in the opposite direction, but rest assured that is most definitely NOT the case ! None the less accept my apologies if there was ever a mis-understanding of “us vs them”. We had a long talk yesterday and, as you have stated, came to the conclusion, to stop pistol whipping the dead horse and move on. We are eager to see the changes in the rule book for next season, and look forward to having a great ending to this season.

See ya at the races

[newb]

look at what those cheating suzuki's used to do back in the 750cc, superbike days...

Clark shuold know what's wrong with this picture:

http://www.foxperformanceengines.com/flywheel.jpg

For us not so engine learnt folks, what is wrong with this pic?

[glenngsxr]

From what it looks like to me, the starter gears and starter are gone and maybe some machine work on that crank. Am I wrong? Glenn #62

[JimWilson29]

looks like a flywheel weight on the right side of the crank

[Hotrod]

Uh... Come on guys, he is missing all of his required covers. Duh!

8)

[benfoxmra95]

yeah that big round thing is a flywheel, not found on suzukis except on the left side. Twice the weight = twice the fun.

Are we still going for ten pages? Last I looked it was well over 4500 views, which far surpassed my guesses.

Let's talk about Ss rain tires, crash where are you?

From a tire vendors point of view, I'd like to do completely away with rain tires. Their just a pain in the ass to haul around and so far the only track we can use them at is Hastings so every other race loading and unloading them out of the trailer. Plus when nobody buys them they sit there and get older on older then no one will want them. And you can't carry enough to satisfy everyone because only like two people plan ahead and order rain tires in anticipation of rain.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Please call me with your input if you feel uncomfortable posting up here. I want to hear what you feel so I can better do my job. 720-253-4727
I feel uncomfortable posting here, can you come over and help me feel more comfortable?

Seriously, I *know* there are a lot of MRA members that don't feel as though they can approach any MRA board member over concern of the possible ramifications. It's not political nor weak, it's just that board members represent authority and thus have a tinge of unapproachability in peoples' minds.

And I suspect many if not most racers weigh the value of bringing any issue up with a board member versus what the longer term ramifications *might* be.

IMHO, that is just a fact. I'm not sure how to change it other than to do what Donna did - namely let everyone know that the job of the rider rep is to be the riders' hook into the MRA board.

And like she said, if *anyone* has something to say to the MRA officials at any time and don't want to post here or go to the officials directly, call, email, or come meet up with any rider rep.

[clowe]

Ok Ben, I'll play!!!!!

First, this post has gotten boring. Have we forgotten why we started this thing in the first place. I just finished making up a bunch of mud in my back yard so the slinging can start!!!

I'll go first 00--00
My predictions for this upcoming race weekend.......it won't be a race weekend at all, it will be a protest fest! Everyone is going to protest everyone. Actually, I am going to protest every other Supersport rider out there because I have been doing research and I have found something I am certain is on almost every Supersport bike on the grid. I have fixed it on my bike and I'm not telling anyone what it is. I think it will prove the point that everyone has something "NOT SUPERSPORT LEGAL" on their bikes. Oh, this should be fun!!!!! I am bubbling with excitement.

I am now looking for a way to protest everyone in ROR. And I am going to get Fred Roth to race in ROR so that he can win and be the MRA #1 plate.

Now Ben, back to your point! Raintires........We should race on them, plain and simple but we'll talk more about that at the rules meeting. About them being old, who cares, it's better than DOTs. About you having to load and unload them, it's a good workout for you to keep you strong like bull. Or keep you full of bull, either way. About not having enough, just buy them for the people that order them and maybe have a set or two on hand for your top riders or your pain in the ass riders. Then, when we have three or four tracks next year where we race in the rain you will ready for the deluge. Then, after that first rain race, everyone will come and buy tires and it won't rain again for three years.

In short Ben, don't be a P*&@. I'll bring you some KY this weekend if you need it. Get some rain tires and come out and play. You beat me last time in ROR so who knows what will happen next!!!!!!!!

Viva la Rain Tires!!!!!!
Set my Rain Tires free!!!!!!
Let the Rain Tires Breathe!!!!!!!!
Take my Rain Tires to the River, drop them in the water!!!!!!!
My Rain Tires can beat up your honor student!!!!!!
If only Al Gore had Rain Tires he could stop Global Warming!!!!!!
If only Al Gore had Rain Tires he would have won in 2000!!!!!!
Free Rain Tires before you Free Tibet!!!
Cheerleaders love Rain Tires!!!!!!
Chuck Norris Sleeps with Rain Tires on his eyes, that is what makes him so tough!!!!
Why do you think they call Sexy Ben, Sexy Ben??? Rain Tires!!!!

OK, I'm done!

[benfoxmra95]

LOL.........your effen high...

Can I get a hit on that shit?

Beating you was luck. I know you where on that 750 and you were having a off weekend.

I'm bringing every rain tire I have and I'm stacking them in your trailer you can haul that crap around.

Just wait and see what I have in store for protests this weekend.

[dragos13]

Ok Ben, I'll play!!!!!

First, this post has gotten boring. Have we forgotten why we started this thing in the first place. I just finished making up a bunch of mud in my back yard so the slinging can start!!!

I'll go first 00--00
My predictions for this upcoming race weekend.......it won't be a race weekend at all, it will be a protest fest! Everyone is going to protest everyone. Actually, I am going to protest every other Supersport rider out there because I have been doing research and I have found something I am certain is on almost every Supersport bike on the grid. I have fixed it on my bike and I'm not telling anyone what it is. I think it will prove the point that everyone has something "NOT SUPERSPORT LEGAL" on their bikes. Oh, this should be fun!!!!! I am bubbling with excitement.

I am now looking for a way to protest everyone in ROR. And I am going to get Fred Roth to race in ROR so that he can win and be the MRA #1 plate.


Sounds like this will be a great weekend for SS riders then. Time for everyone to print out the rulebook and start doing your homework. I know I will be.

[rforsythe]

I think I'm just gonna kick Crash $50 so he doesn't protest me, and grid up on my Ninja 250. I'm practically guaranteed 2nd place. :twisted:


Come on page 8!!

[The GECCO]

If only Al Gore had Rain Tires he could stop Global Warming!!!!!!
If only Al Gore had Rain Tires he would have won in 2000!!!!!!

Why doesn't he have them? I thought he invented rain tires?? :lol:

[Hotrod]

I think I'm just gonna kick Crash. :twisted:





Ralph, I am really disappointed in you. Violence is not the answer.

[clowe]

I thought he invented Pants and the Internet.

Now I come to find out Rain Tires too!!!!!! Wahoooooo!!! I love Al Gore!
=D> \:D/ =P~ (\00\)

[HAMMER]

what is this "SUPERSPORT" everyone talkes about......... oh whell that why i ride in heavyweight on a 600.....cant protest that......


why dont you all quit bitchin....... AND RACE!!!!! IM DOWN 30 - 40 HP ON EVERYONE ON 750S ....and still podium....



how bout ya ........RIDE FASTER / QUIT BITCHIN......

if ya dont like rules race superbike ..........w/ me......


this is gonna be a mess this weekend... hope all the nonesense dont mess w/ the rest of us who just wan2 ride....... :shock:

[HAMMER]

p.s. that whay i ride superbike... EVERYONE knows that if i rode supersport i would have been protested in the first race............ CAUSE YOU ALL LOVE ME SOOOOO MUCH.........( ASK C.WEED)


i love rules...........SYKE!!!! :shock:

[dragos13]

p.s. that whay i ride superbike... EVERYONE knows that if i rode supersport i would have been protested in the first race............ CAUSE YOU ALL LOVE ME SOOOOO MUCH.........( ASK C.WEED)


i love rules...........SYKE!!!! :shock:

No its cuz you have a 130hp SBK built motor and just wont admit it :twisted: We all know this already!

You should come join the fun this weekend Hammer, its gonna be a SS fun-filled weekend!!!

Hey Crash, wanna give some "hints" to this ultimate SS violation? Come on help me out, I wont tell no one!

[clowe]

Keep it coming, just two more pages to go!!!

I thought this would be going nuts!!!!

Oh, boy!!! I can't wait for Saturday afternoon.

[terid]

I am now looking for a way to protest everyone in ROR. And I am going to get Fred Roth to race in ROR so that he can win and be the MRA #1 plate.



uummmm.....you better be careful. You might be creating a monster here :shock:

.....besides, his spongebob boxers are protestable...so he'll get DQ'd too.

[froth]

Baby, I think we dealt with the boxer issue some time ago. Of course, the sports bra for my man boobs may be something else!

As I am going to be getting waivers for ROR, Crash, should I be running O or U? Can I borrow your sano liter bike if it's O?

It looks like we will be back this weekend, so it should be fun! Just don't protest me, I'll just die!

Hugs and Kisses

Fred

[marty]

As I am going to be getting waivers for ROR, Crash, should I be running O or U? Can I borrow your sano liter bike if it's O?

It looks like we will be back this weekend, so it should be fun! Just don't protest me, I'll just die!

Hugs and Kisses

Fred

no matter what class you ride in fred, i'm gonna get the OK from mark to ride in the same class as you, and i'll protest you :twisted: gotta keep the status quo :lol:

[Scored51]

no matter what class you ride in fred, i'm gonna get the OK from mark to ride in the same class as you, and i'll protest you :twisted: gotta keep the status quo :lol:

THAT DOES IT! Fred, you and I are gonna build a SBK EX500 motor (double bubble and all) just to run Marty down in Colorado Class. First thing we need to do is arrange for a search party after the race weekend to find the EX500 in my garage. :idea:

[froth]

To quote the penguins from Madagascar..."Quiet boys, nobody sees anything."

Marty, Chris, and my legion of adoring fans (let's see, that's my mom, mother in law, two sons and wife, that qualifies as a legion :lol: ). LET's RACE!

[froth]

One additional note: Marty, Jeff, Chris Dale and I are going to petition for a class that we alone can run. Our main focus will be having a great time playing pass your buddy, with a cash prize of well over a dollar at the end of the season. Protests will be mandatory to keep your points, and extra will be added for getting something past V-P Tech (sorry Ray-Ray, we must do what we must :wink: )

Actually, how do you all think about reducing the number of classes/races from twenty something to about six or seven, with much longer races (from eight laps to, say 15) and ROR going 20??? Endurance? Let's hit the hour. I have another idea, which I am in the process of fleshing out for super sport vs suberbike, but it's taking longer than I thought to get clear in my mind.

Marty, Jeff, Chris, let's play this weekend. First one across the line wins and autographed picture of Fee Waybill and a genuine cassette recording ot the "Completion Backward Principle," recorded direct from LP to Technic cassette deck in 1984.

Have we hit page nine yet???

[terid]

Chris,
I've seen your garage....if the search party isn't out in half a day, we will send another search party in after you :D

http://www.gizmag.com/go/6440/gallery/picture/28840/

and this is what Fred wants for the new class (are 3 wheels legal?)