Why don't we follow our rulebook???

[Tumbleweed]

This weekend there were I believe 3 supersport riders to have been found with an illegal set up on their bikes according to our rulebook. From what I have heard these riders were fined $50 and no points or positions were taken away from them. These riders finished better than other riders going for Suzuki and Yamaha contingency. Which means that lets say a cheating yamaha rider took 5th place, They were fined $50 but won $250. If another yamaha rider finished behind this person he would have been paid $200. So the cheater still makes $200 and the legit racer makes $50 less than he should. Somehow I don't think this is fair. According to our rulebook

Section 13

C. Upon entering any motorcycle in any MRA class, the rider is responsible for their motorcycle meeting class requirements. If at any time the entered motorcycle is found to be illegal for the entered class, the rider will forfeit points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class.

D. Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension.

Now I understand that if you read both of these penalties they sort of contradict each other. But the bottom line is the 3 riders who were found to be cheating all had the same change to their bikes from what I have heard. This is a change that has been proven to give extra horsepower. Now according to 13.C it is the riders responsibility for their bike to meet requirements. The 3 bikes to have been found to be illegal all come from a motorcycle background and can in no way be considered incompetent in motorcycle technical matters. They knew what they were doing when they altered their bikes to increase horsepower. I knew of the modification to these bikes when I ran Superbike classes and guess what I did them because it was legal because I wanted every advantage I could get. Now I run supersport and I did not do this modification because I did not want to cheat. Even if it only gives you .1 HP it is still cheating and we should penalize according to our rulebook especially when these riders damn well knew what they were doing when they modified their bikes.

In my opinion I believe the MRA board failed us this weekend in their decision of this matter. I think to make it right we should follow what our rulebook says and penalize these riders with loss of points and positions for this last weekend in the classes that were cheated in and loss of season points in those classes.

(Seriously the AMA penalized Josh Hayes after the week of Daytona so why can't we reverse a decision and penalize our riders according to our rulebook after the fact, If this is not done I say Bull Sh!t) I'm sick of our club being considered a cheaters club and it needs to change.

[bluedevil]

Grabs bag of popcorn and watches......



We have made a lot of exceptions and "re-writes" to the rules because of certain infractions made in the last few years... and in fact gone soft on some of the infractions..... Though I dont know any specifics of this specific situation.... I think your right.... We have a rule book for a reason... and we have penalties that we are all aware of when taking a risk or gray area....

If you are illiterate and cant read, I certainly understand.. however, Ill be glad to sit down and read the rule book to you if that is the case... Id hate for some one unable to read, to un-fairly be labeled a "cheater"


http://www.mra-racing.org/PDF/2008_rulebook.pdf

[dragos13]

+1 Chris. I'm glad someone said something public about this.

[glenngsxr]

no doubt! I did not finish anywhere near the front, but it does not matter. Crankcase breather hoses relieve crankcase pressure. No brainer! Go read the WERA board on the question I posted this morning and you might find some answers and opinions on the matter.

Chris,
How are you and the bike? I have tons of spares. Need anything? Still want to do Miller. Glenn #62

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

<<< snip >>>


D. Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension.

Now I understand that if you read both of these penalties they sort of contradict each other. But the bottom line is the 3 riders who were found to be cheating all had the same change to their bikes from what I have heard. This is a change that has been proven to give extra horsepower.

I think you're talking about the air tube issue, no? If so, there is another relevant part of the rulebook.. namely 2.2.2.C.10.d (sheesh..)


d. Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may
be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided
they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.

Keep in mind, I don't have a dog in this fight - I'm just trying to add some clarity to the discussion as I know it.

The crux of the issue is around the phrase ... "to gain a performance advantage" - which speaks of the intent of using them. If, as CWeed says, it's clearly an HP gain (like bored throttle bodies would be), then absolutely they should be disqualified.

So the answer I got from people also not affected by this issue was that this is a maintenance & bodywork fit change and has questionable/unprovable effects on power output, possibly even negative effects in some conditions.

Since there aren't any dynos that anyone knew of where ram air effects (via different tubes) can be measured, nobody can tell if these tubes do anything to performance.

Although I wasn't in the loop for an "official" annoucement - I'm assuming it was decided that they did not result in a performance advantage and so fines were levied. I'm sure Ray-Ray or Glenn will correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheating will kill a club as will appearances of favoritism. This is a tough call and I personally know everyone involved with it has/is taking it very seriously. I hope most people will support the officials' decision and those who disagree with it will make suggestions on what we can do in the future to make things like this less of a problem.

[ZiaThunder]

After racing with MRA for the first time in June I was wondering the same thing.......

[Ashli]

If there isn't a performance gain from it, then why did they do it? :?

[cu260r6]

If there wasn't a performance advantage gained then it wouldn't be an infraction. Since fines where levied obviously there were infractions, so the discussion should focus around the penalty assessed, not the infraction found. I have no idea who the riders were, but when the penalty is so expressly mentioned in the rulebook club officials shouldn't have discretion to deviate from it.

[Tumbleweed]

I am not sure if it is supposed to be public knowledge or not when there is a tear down. But it might help if we all knew exactly what the infractions were. I have heard ram air tubes and also crankcase breather hoses. I understand how you would not want to run the stock ram air tubes because I am constantly putting mine back into the frame holes after my races but I still never bought aftermarket ones because in my opinion the rulebook spelled it out that it wasn't allowed if it changed them. And I have yet to see an aftermarket tube that looks anything like the stock ones in my bike, therefore I left mine alone. As for the crankcase breather hoses, that can definitely gain HP. I keep my bike 100% legal. If it is questionable I don't use it. I expect the same from everybody else.

So was the infraction ram air tube related or crankcase breather hose related?

Either way, I say they should know better and it was wrong and on purpose. It was not a mistake. It was on purpose. Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping. Again I say bad on them.

[Wahooman]

I heard talk in numerous pits as I rode around on Sunday.....seemed like everyone was "talking" about "it" but no one knew what was really going on. I am with Weed....maybe more communication would be good. Obviously at the track it might be hard as the board determines what to do and discusses matter.
But once decided either have this discussed at rider meeting, or hold a seperate meeting for those who want to attend.
The other option is to post it up here clarifying everything and asking for ideas, suggestions, etc.....of course this could take a day or too as well once everyone is back home and settled. I know my rule book was lent out to someone as they were involved with one of the infractions.
I know there were several individuals upset and lots of talk. I hope it does not continue that way as stated above.......I look forward to see the outcomes and more details related to this.

On another note....Weed, glad you are okay. Didn't get a chance to talk to you, but saw the bike...OUCH.

[Tumbleweed]

I got lucky, I'm ok. The bike will live another day. Definitly the fastest crash of my life. Turn 3 no no. Woops.

[dave.gallant]

As I was not present I do not know what the actual infractions were but in general crankcase breather lines routed to the PAIR valve is illegal in WERA, illegal in CCS, and (in past years) illegal in the MRA.

Yes, it is a performance modification, and a well-known one at that. I can show you dyno graphs to prove it, as can every other shop in the area.

That said, I would not personally disagree with anyone who believes this modification should be made legal. It is cheap, easy, and attainable for most everyone without the need for special tools, dynos, etc. But, that is something that should be brought up in October at the annual rules meeting.

[OConnell]

The actual infraction woould be a good thing to publicize. Shouldn't be much problem with this if the offending parties are not named. It might help someone realize that something they have done may be illegal, even if they are not trying to cheat.

The talk about ram air ducts is interesting, and has me thinking about my 600 that I ran in MWSS all last year. The air ducts on that bike have a secondary resonator chamber that constantly falls out, and I have even lost one of the two. So this year I just left them off and plugged the holes in the bottom of the tubes (which isn't an issue since it is only running AMU this season anyways). But would this be illegal? The rulebook says the tubes can be removed, but can a part of them be removed and the hole plugged (as i have done on the 600)?

[The GECCO]

Personally, I am 100% comfortable with the decision as it was made.

Here is what was found:

(2) Yamaha R1's were found to have aftermarket ram air tubes

(1) Yamaha R6 was found to have the crankcase vented to the atmosphere, where the stock configuration has it vented to the airbox. FWIW, this is not the same as the modification that Dave (MotoSix) mentioned that has been proven to be a performance enhancer.

Here are a few relevant issues:

2.2.2.C.10.d states:
Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.
Retaining "stock internal area and overall shape" is a somewhat subjective measurement of compliance.

Additionally, re-quoting what CWeed referenced (emphasis added):
Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in...
means that it is still up to our discretion regarding whether or not these modifications resulted in a performance advantage.

Regarding the air tubes - Are they different? Yes. But, is different always better? Not necessarily. I'll bet everything I own that Yamaha puts more R&D behind the shape and size of their ducts than Sharkskins does. Just like the kids putting a big wing on the back of a Honda Civic - it's definitely different, but not a performance advantage. In fact they are a huge disadvantage to top speed and fuel efficiency.

Regarding the crankcase breather - also not necessarily a performance gain. In the stock configuration the vent is routed to the airbox between the air filter and the throttle bodies. This area sees high vacuum under wide open throttle conditions and this actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. This vacuum is a performance enhancer, all the ultra-high performance engines in F1 and the like actually run a pump that is designed to run the crankcase at as much as 18" of vacuum so there is less air for the crankshaft to push out of the way. Venting the breather to the atmosphere results in a loss of this vacuum, and this could be actually be a performance disadvantage. The modification Dave (MotoSix) mentioned is something that can be done to increase the vacuum of the crankcase on GSXR's. That was not found this weekend.


Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping.
Possibly because they are cheaper than OEM parts damaged in an accident, or to allow the OEM parts to be set aside along with the OEM bodywork to prevent them from being damaged.

In summary, while these items are violations, the board simply does not feel that the nature of the violations and the gains (if ANY) enjoyed by the riders justify a complete disqualification from the days events and loss of all points-to-date in those classes.

[dave.gallant]

I can't imagine venting to atmosphere (and not the airbox) does much of anything positive. I guess at Bonneville-like speeds I imagine there would be a few percent higher pressure in the airbox than atmosphere due to the RAM-air design which would negate the vaccum applied to the crankcase vent. That is one of the reasons (besides turbulence) why we run sealed airboxes in the first place. It would be a fun experiment none the less!

But, I guess it is a technical infraction simply because the crank breather really must go to a catch can. If you tried venting to atmosphere with a Ducati, you would empty all your oil on the first lap! :shock:

:lol:

[The GECCO]

I can't imagine venting to atmosphere (and not the airbox) does much of anything positive. I guess at Bonneville-like speeds I imagine there would be a few percent higher pressure in the airbox than atmosphere due to the RAM-air design which would negate the vaccum applied to the crankcase vent. That is one of the reasons (besides turbulence) why we run sealed airboxes in the first place. It would be a fun experiment none the less!

But, I guess it is a technical infraction simply because the crank breather really must go to a catch can. If you tried venting to atmosphere with a Ducati, you would empty all your oil on the first lap! :shock:

:lol:

It actually did have a catch can in-line (good), but then was routed out the back of the bike (bad) instead of into the belly pan.

[dave.gallant]

I can't imagine venting to atmosphere (and not the airbox) does much of anything positive. I guess at Bonneville-like speeds I imagine there would be a few percent higher pressure in the airbox than atmosphere due to the RAM-air design which would negate the vaccum applied to the crankcase vent. That is one of the reasons (besides turbulence) why we run sealed airboxes in the first place. It would be a fun experiment none the less!

But, I guess it is a technical infraction simply because the crank breather really must go to a catch can. If you tried venting to atmosphere with a Ducati, you would empty all your oil on the first lap! :shock:

:lol:

It actually did have a catch can in-line (good), but then was routed out the back of the bike (bad) instead of into the belly pan.

Weird.

Why go through so much effort??

[The GECCO]

Why go through so much effort??
I suppose it could be argued that the crankcase fumes going into the airbox take the place of clean air, and therefore reduce performance. However, a lot of what is being vented is the air/fuel mixture that makes it past the rings into the crankcase, so it's not as if this is something that won't burn. As I eluded to above, my opinion is that this benefit of venting to the atmosphere is negligible at best, and perhaps even outweighed by the loss of crankcase vacuum.

[Tumbleweed]

The GECCO wrote:
MotoSix wrote:
I can't imagine venting to atmosphere (and not the airbox) does much of anything positive. I guess at Bonneville-like speeds I imagine there would be a few percent higher pressure in the airbox than atmosphere due to the RAM-air design which would negate the vaccum applied to the crankcase vent. That is one of the reasons (besides turbulence) why we run sealed airboxes in the first place. It would be a fun experiment none the less!

But, I guess it is a technical infraction simply because the crank breather really must go to a catch can. If you tried venting to atmosphere with a Ducati, you would empty all your oil on the first lap!




It actually did have a catch can in-line (good), but then was routed out the back of the bike (bad) instead of into the belly pan.


Weird.

Why go through so much effort??

Why go through that much effort? The simple answer is whether or not the person who did this did or did not get an advantage, they sure thought they were going to get one with this set up and that is why they ran it that way. Why else would you go through that much effort. So in conclusion this person is a cheater and cheated on purpose to try and get an advantage.

[motobum]

So in conclusion this person is a cheater and cheated on purpose to try and get an advantage.

or they just didnt think it was illegal..

[Tumbleweed]

That is the beautiful thing about how Section 13.C is written.

Section 13

C. Upon entering any motorcycle in any MRA class, the rider is responsible for their motorcycle meeting class requirements. If at any time the entered motorcycle is found to be illegal for the entered class, the rider will forfeit points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class.

If you don't know the rule book that is your fault. If you rode in the AMA and they found you to be illegal and you didn't know about the rule do you think they would say well how bout $50 and don't do it next time. I don't think so. This section is Black and White. All 3 were found to be illegal for the class. Black and White. But we did not enforce the rules as we should have. Whether on purpose or not it does not matter. We have rules for a reason and when they are broken they should be enforced. If they are not going to be enforced then why the hell am I following them.

[DingleBerns]

If they are not going to be enforced then why the hell am I following them.

So I can cheat and get that much closer to beating you. :D

[cu260r6]

No where in the rulebook is discretion given to anyone to decide the penalty for a violation that is already found. If I was one of the 4 riders I wouldn't pay my fine because there isn't any basis for it in the rulebook. Either revoke their points or (as should be done) don't. Why is a violation of the penalty portion of the rulebook permissible while violating the rule on intake tubes and crankcase whatever impermissible?

[Clarkie]

so if i run my big bore motor in SS and get caught I just get a $50 fine? sweet!............... just dont tell my wife I cheated as i am more scared of her finding out i cheated than anyone else, her calling me a pussy will be the least of my worries :D

here is my take on the air intake ducts is this, unless the stock ducts are heavily restricted you arent going to gain any power by going to a duct that is marginally larger, it has to do with aerodynamics, choke point, airbox design etc.

to me a rule book is a rule book and should be followed to the letter, the problem is that the term 'Showroom Stock' will disqualify 99% of the SS grids even if it's not a 'performance' gain.

Unfortuneately a LOT of club racing orgs have a history of cheating, grey areas and different rules for different racers (call it confessions of a past champion :wink: ), the other problem is that some clubs say "if it doesnt say you cant you can" (CCS) while other clubs say "if it doesnt say you can you cant" (WERA).

I say lets just get rid of the SS classes, dump the contingency into the SB classes and have longer (20-30 lap) races, but that's just me :D

[Lel399]

so if i run my big bore motor in SS and get caught I just get a $50 fine? sweet!...............

I agree 1000% with clarkie.

As Brewer said earlier, I dont have a dog in this fight... I have a 600 superbike and I do not ride in SS because it is illegal for the class.

So we are now saying as a club, that even though there is a clear cut rule what you can and CANNOT do, that you will only be fined $50 for 'cheating'. If you are torn down and found illegal, there is a clear cut penalty in our rulebook. As charles said earlier... The club DID decide there was an infraction... regardless of being a performance gain or not, the club has found something that makes those bike not legal for supersport, and assesed a fine as a penalty. That being the case, there is a clear cut action for a bike being illegal; points being revoked.

Should there be some discression in removing all points, or just points from that weekend, I think so. I do not think it would be right to remove all points for the season; but that is not in the rulebook now, and should be something that we bring up at the end of the season allowing for just DQ from that weekend only.

Also defining a performance gain is complete and utter BS. There are so many opinions on what is a performance gain or not, sample 100 guys, 50 might say one thing, 50 might say another etc. What about a slipper clutch now? Can you definatively prove that it gives a peformance gain? You can tell me its purpose, but what about someone that is better at blipping the throttle and using the engine braking etc. What about slicks? I am willing to bet there are just as many guys ou there that will say slicks dont make a bit of difference over new race dot's.

At what point is the infraction changed from 'minor' to something that we DQ points? As clarkie said, now can he run his bigbore motor in SS? I am sure that would save him a lot of time changing motors! :twisted:

IMO there is no reason that the additional punishment of points removal can not still be enforced. The penalty section of the rulebook does not read as 'pick one', it does allow for board to punish points AND a fine (letters C and D i believe)

lel

[The GECCO]

so if i run my big bore motor in SS and get caught I just get a $50 fine? sweet!

I know you're joking, but I'll answer anyway! Nope, not a fine here. The difference lies in the "gain a performance advantage" clause I quoted earlier.

[Clarkie]

dammit..........I mean thankyou for saving me my an asswhipping I would never live down :D

and yeah, joking

[Lel399]

I know you're joking, but I'll answer anyway! Nope, not a fine here. The difference lies in the "gain a performance advantage" clause I quoted earlier.

So performance gain falls to the tech/board then? Again (extreme) slicks vs dots... a lot of people dont think its a perfomance gain, yet it is clearly illegal for SS, and there is NO WAY someone could get by running them in a SS class because it is clearly written in the rulebook.

Once again, the rule is stated clearly... there is an infraction to the rule, and here is the punishment. The performance gain or not is 100% moot. IMO that rule in the penalty section is not a rule to choose over the removal of points.. but an ADDITIONAL fine that can be placed by the club, not a this or that.

[dimick27]

well since it was annnounced saturday after the races that "the tear down will be a public event, riders feel free to come and check out the bikes." we can just throw this harry potter "he who shall not be named" nonsense out the door. My name is Dalton Dimick and i rode the silver r6 with the "illegal" crankcase catchcan.

Am i a cheater?? NO! Did i know that the crankcase catchcan was performance enhancing?? NO! is it? no! its a catchcan.

oh and WEED are ready for this?? we had 4 hours from the time the mwss race concluded to the time the tear down began. if we had thought we were cheating at all we would have removed the catchcan! we didnt think we were therefore there it was for everybody to see in the tear down. Hell if i wanted to cheat i might as well have thrown on slicks, mag wheels, and a sbk kit before the race. i mean we would have had 4 hours to swap everything back to stock right? and if your gonna cheat, you might as well cheat big!

Ive been racing AMA Supermoto the past 4 years and it is required to have a catchcan for that hose. WE MADE A MISTAKE we realize that and we are sorry. but it was an honest mistake and NO we are not cheaters.

I came into this season with one goal, and that was to try and figure out how the hell to drag a knee, and maybe an elbow :lol:. having to start on the last row the first few races, a championship, and series points were never a concern for me. like i said im racing this club to try and meet some new people and learn this extremely fun sport. therefore if i am not in it for points, why would i disrespect a club that my family has been a part of for nearly 30 years, by trying to pull a quicky and cheat. I WOULDNT! We were simply confused with the rule book because there is a bit of a grey area concerning the situation. The right thing to do would have been to confront a board member about the sit. prior to the event which we did not because like i said, we didnt know it was cheating.

I met alot of cool, welcoming, friendly racers this weekend (ara, tittle, dragos... just to name a few) and to be honest Weed i dont believe you and i have ever met :? so how is it that you are so positive that im this POS cheater that your making me out to be on this forum?? you know nothing about me.

so from one stranger to the another here is a piece of advice... Twist the throttle a little harder next time your out there and you wont have to worry about us "cheaters" beating you!

dalton

[Tumbleweed]

As Jason said, as the rulebook reads it is not a pick one or the other. It is black and white and plain as day that 13.C (loss of points) will be applied if an infraction is found period. So as our rulebook reads and should be followed points for the season should be taken away. Is it harsh? Yes. Is it too much? Maybe. Is it the right punishment according to our rulebook? Yes. If loss of points was not meant to be a definite if you are found to be illegal then there would only be a section 13.D and 13.C would not exist. If you don't like how it is written and you think 13.C should not exist then we should talk about changing it at the end of the season but as it sits now the board needs to have some backbone and follow our rulebook and enforce this punishment due to it is our rules. Or else lets just burn the rulebook and have a free for all. ](*,)

[motobum]

so from one stranger to the another here is a piece of advice... Twist the throttle a little harder next time your out there and you wont have to worry about us "cheaters" beating you!

dalton

OH no you didnt! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

dalton stop sticking your foot out, then you can tell someone to twist the throttle harder! :lol:

if dalton got his points taken away for running a catch can. i promise that if you would of told him before that weekend that it was illegal and he was going to get in trouble. he would of had no problem fixing it.

[The GECCO]

even though there is a clear cut rule what you can and CANNOT do
There is? The air tubes conforming or not is subjective, as I pointed out earlier, and the crankcase vent isn't directly addressed in the book, but falls under the heading of "things that aren't on the list of approved changes". The difference is subtle, yes, but you make it sound a lot more black and white. The rulebook also doesn't specifically allow non-OEM valve stems, should we start DQ'ing people for those as well? If someone is using titanium stems, it could be considered an advantage. What about nitrogen in the tires? I don't know of any factory that does that, yet many feel there is an advantage to be had. Writing a rule book that addresses everything that CAN'T be done is a monumental task, having one (like ours) that lists only the things that CAN be done leaves you the ability to enforce some pretty silly "infractions". I bet if I look hard enough I could find something on every single bike that isn't on the "allowed list".


Should there be some discression in the point of removing all points, or just points from that weekend, I think so. I do not think it would be right to remove all points for the season, but absolutely right to DQ them from that weekends results
So you agree that there should be discretion, you just disagree with the end result. That's fine, everybody is entitled to an opinion. But you aren't among the people the club elected whose opinions determine the decision.


Also defining a performance gain is complete and utter BS. There are so many opinions on what is a performance gain or not, sample 100 guys, 50 might say one thing, 50 might say another etc. What about a slipper clutch now? Can you definatively prove that it gives a peformance gain? What about slicks? I am willing to bet there are just as many guys ou there that will say slicks dont make a bit of difference over new race dot's.

At what point is the infraction changed from 'minor' to something that we DQ points? As clarkie said, now can he run his bigbore motor in SS? I am sure that would save him a lot of time changing motors! :twisted:
At the point your officials determine, that's why we were elected. If you want to try to completely remove our discretion and attempt to write a rule that covers every possible situation and what the proper penalty should be for each infraction, you are insulting the people you appoint.

In my view, this is what it boils down to - I have yet to talk to anyone who feels that following the exact letter of our rulebook (which would have resulted in all three riders being DQ'd and losing all their supersport points year-to-date) would have been a "just" punishment. So, the dissatisfaction isn't so much that we deviated from the book, it's with HOW FAR we deviated. It was a judgment decision. I'm completely NOT being a smartass when I say that if you want your judgment to supersede ours then you need to run for the board in November. If you're simply unhappy with the decision, then you need to vote for someone else. Again, I'm not trying to be flip, that's simply the way it works.

[Clarkie]

As clarkie said, now can he run his bigbore motor in SS? I am sure that would save him a lot of time changing motors! :twisted:

I can swap a motor in 1 1/2 hours............. i would be running from my wife for way longer than that :lol:

[The GECCO]

the board needs to have some backbone and follow our rulebook and enforce this punishment due to it is our rules.
As I said, Chris, I bet I can find something on EVERY bike that isn't OEM, and isn't on the "allowed list" - even yours. It may be something as ridiculous as a hose clamp...or a video system...so do you REALLY want to remove our discretion to say "that's OK", or "that doesn't warrant a complete DQ for the season"?

[dimick27]

weed i agree with your last comment. fwiw i did not get down on my knees and beg to keep my position and just pay the fine, because like i stated before im not here to take anybodies money or get in the way of their points. i simply want to race. its my first year and im not here to make enemies. that is just the penalty that the board offered me.

sorry about my last post too i just got a little tied up in the moment, all i ask is that you dont assume things about a person without ever shaking their hand and meeting them in person. im sure your a nice guy and i understand why you would be heated about the subject. i understand i broke the rules and am willing to pay the penalty. but i am not a cheater and was not trying to cheat.

[Tumbleweed]

Dalton, I apologize for the cheater comments. What I meant to say was illegal bikes. Just so you know in no way am I trying to attack you personally. I don't know you at all. You just happen to be a part of this thing even if you had no idea about any of it before this weekend. I'm sorry you are involved. This is why I read the rulebook at the beginning of every season just for the hell of it to make sure I don't get caught with my pants down.

Just so you all know I spoke to a minimum of 20 people about this during the weekend and all were confused like myself. I just don't have a problem with bringing this stuff up cause when the next race comes I will say hi to everybody as if it never happened and I honestly won't give a crap about the last race. I bring these things up so we can get a good understanding of what is going on so this stuff doesn't happen again. This is not the first time I have been through this. Last season there was a similar situation involving a red flag rule and guess what, the rule was made more clear with a rule change at the end of the season. Maybe that needs to happen again.

On a side note Glenn. I no longer have camera's on the bike. They were all removed by force in turn 13 at hastings and I didn't feel like putting them back on. :wink:

So everybody enjoy the can I opened up and I will see you all with a smile next race. :D

[Lel399]

just some more food for thought...

Section 2.2
.... "Supersport motorcycles must meet the following requirements in addition to the requirements in Section 5 - Technical and Safety Requirements...... "

Section 5.2.Q
All engines must have oil breather line(s) returning to the air box or an alternantive heat reistant catch tank of at least 12-ounce capacity (no glass, thin plastic, or paper). The inlet line must be securely fastened and the catch tank adequately vented to avoid pressurization. Alternatively, production-based motorcycles may vent the oil breather(s) to the air box with plugged drains.



The way I read that... Dalton did nothing wrong.... ? :?: :?

[Lel399]

nm :)

[The GECCO]

The way I read that... Dalton did nothing wrong.... ? :?: :?

Section 5 is not specific to SS legality, it deals with general safety requirements. ALL bikes must meet the requirements in section 5 for safety reasons, SS bikes must also meet SS specs for class legality.

[benfoxmra95]

Being called a cheater is not nice.

Being a previous board member, and the tech inspector, I guess I should be held to a higher level of scrutiny.

Well I did hold myself to the highest level this weekend...

Well how so you you ask?

Saturday morning(before the supersport race), someone was milling around my pits B.S.ing with another rider.

He was looking at my bike and noticed my air ducts. He was a very informed person and has a good interpetation of the rulebook and said, hey those airducts are carbon fiber and are not legal...

So I got out a rule book and interpeted the rule as the only thing that was questionable was the sizing of the airducts.

So bear this in mind, I help ray with the tech in the mornings this year. And I already knew that there was going to be teardowns this weekend long before anyone else here did.

I easily could have removed the ducts before the SS race. But I didn't

I knew for fact that the person who was in my pits rasing hell about my airducts, was going to say something and did say something about them to someone on the board.

I was fully ready to accept any penalty handed down to me. So I raced the supersport race in the exact form I have been racing it in all year long.

I knew that the after rereading the rule on the ducts that the shape of mine were not the exact form of stock but the rule states that aftermarket ones are allowed. So I was going to let the cards fall where they may. And take whatever penalty was coming to me.

If I was trying to hide something, if I was trying to CHEAT, all I had to do was remove them before the race that day. I didn't. I left them on there knowing full well what was coming at the end of the day and I even recomended a higher monatary fine when I was told that it was going to be $50.

My intent with my airducts was not to gain an advantage, but for ease of use with the bodywork, and plus they look cool. The stock ducts are pieces of shit. they don't mate up to my bodywork at all and fall out. The first time I tried the stock ones I had to go pick the up at the end of turn one at pueblo.

At this time, I am going to voice some stuff about supersport:

The supersport rules IMO have been slowly getting molested over the past 10 years I have seen in the club.

Over the years I have seen people submit rule changes for supersport allowing "special parts" and rallying up their friends to come to rules meetings to help vote in the rules for "special parts". I won't go into the fact that there is a profit to be made on selling these parts and installing them on bikes, and this is one motivation for the allowance of them.

The board reviews and has final say on what rules are adopted but, I can tell you this if 10 people out of 12 vote for a rule change at a rules meeting it definately can have an impact on how the board views a rule and if it is adopted.

Let me put it this way to you and give you something to think about:

I can put over $1500 worth of kit ecu, harness, etc... bullshit on my supersport bike.

I can put a $1000+ traction control system on my supersport bike.

I can mill the head for $300+ on my supersport bike

I can use a $150 "kit" head gasket on my supersport bike.

I can do a $250-$750 "supersport" valve job that can include some questionable valve throat entry porting on my supersport bike

I can put questionably "stock" conforming bodywork" on my supersport bike.

I can put questionable "kit" engine parts in my supersport motor for $xxx

I can run $30+ a gallon race fuel in my supersport bike.

I can put $1500 cartridges "complete" ohlins interanls in my supersport forks

But:

I can't modify the crankcase breather for $9

I can't put $149 aftermarket airducts on.

Give me an effen break!

I know rules are rules and ment to be followed, and I fully didn't understand a rule regarding the sizing of an airduct and should be and was penalized for it.

Was it my intent to cheat? No effen way! And if it was do why would I do something blatant right out in the open? WTF? If I was going to cheat, I'd do something that was going to make a shit bit of difference in HP like a Big bore kit, or stroker crank, or kit cams, there's been plenty of those parts in SS motors in the past that have collected SS contingency money...


I will be submitting my suggestions for a supersport rules revamp and the end of this year.

[The GECCO]

It isnt the fine for this situation, but the precident that if its outside of tech specs for supersport, its only $50 bucks. Not fair to those that do it 'by the book' if the board isnt going 'by the book'
It doesn't set a precedent of anything "outside of tech specs for SS, it's only $50", it sets the precedent that the board, or more specifically, the VP of R&T with input from the board, will determine the appropriate penalties for infractions on a case-by-case basis. Does the book say "will" where (in my opinion) it should say "may"? Yes, it does. Was the significance of that one word debated, or even considered, when it was written? I can't say for sure. I can say that tossing these three riders points year-to-date for these infractions could be described as draconian at best.

[cosp600rr]

I think the entire process needs a strong once over. Why the hell do people know when there are going to be teardowns anyway? In my opinion no body should know except the tech inspector where and when they are coming. Somebody could be running illegal parts up to the weekend when the teardowns are going to happen then take them out or not even show up for the race that weekend.

There are 2 ways to go about fixing this problem. 1 only the tech inspector knows when and where it happens. 2 do a lottery drawing every weekend after the race. Everbodies number that races goes into a hat and after the race you draw out 5 numbers and they get torn down. Then you would never know when it was going to be your time so people would have to remain legal all the time.

I used to run supersport but have stopped because I bought a slipper clutch for my bike. It doesn't come with one and my own mind wouldn't let me run it anyway so I stopped. I have had several people tell me to run it anyway noing I may never finish top 5 anyway. I could do that but choose to play by the rules. I even had a person tell me to put in the slipper and they would warn me before the race weekend and I could pull it out. This is bull***. Lets try to make some changes to the system so it can work more fairly.

Just my 2 cents

[benfoxmra95]

Matt, I am the tech assistant....I have been helping ray, it's my job...why wouldn't I know?

And for shit's sake, do you really think I'm cheating, finishing 5th out of 8 total people people on the grid? because I am privy to info your not?

Again, give me an effen break!!

Don't talk to me about keeping this all secret and "no one should know nothing", crap.

I don't think you have enough past experience with the MRA here to know full well what your talking about, when you say the only person who should know anything is the tech director.

Bart was tech director for years and had a shop in denver that has built 3/4 of the shit racing in the MRA. Now that's a conflict of interest if I ever heard of one.

[dave.gallant]

Somebody could be running illegal parts up to the weekend when the teardowns are going to happen then take them out or not even show up for the race that weekend.

This would never happen.

Ever.

I mean, no one would ever ride a 4 year old clapped out 600 instead of one of their 3 different GSBRRs at Pikes Puke just to avoid a well hidden (publicized) tear down.

Never. Not in a million years.

( BTW: Ben is not a cheater. He may be many things, but he is not a cheater. )

[cosp600rr]

Ben........... slight missunderstanding here. I was not talking about you in general. My post just happened to come after yours. I was thinking about this at the races because I know about them before they happened. I am just a racer who doesn't really know or talk to that many board members. I don't even race supersport anymore and heard it was going to happen. It was all out before the races even started. I didn't mean for you to take it that way. Of coarse you should know if you are helping the tech inspector,but only you and him. no body else should know.

Did we have any races that normally run supersport classes and finish pretty well that didn't show up for the races on sat? I have no Idea but I am sure it happenes. Thats all I am saying Ben. Not pionting any fingers at you.

[benfoxmra95]

Somebody could be running illegal parts up to the weekend when the teardowns are going to happen then take them out or not even show up for the race that weekend.

This would never happen.

Ever.

I mean, no one would ever ride a 4 year old clapped out 600 instead of one of their 3 different GSBRRs at Pikes Puke just to avoid a well hidden (publicized) tear down.

Never. Not in a million years.

( BTW: Ben is not a cheater. He may be many things, but he is not a cheater. )


I remember that incident... Probably not many people here know what your talking about. The conflict of interest scenario i mentioned above, may be too much information.....woops, oh darn, oh well...

[benfoxmra95]

Weed wrote:

Why go through that much effort? The simple answer is whether or not the person who did this did or did not get an advantage, they sure thought they were going to get one with this set up and that is why they ran it that way. Why else would you go through that much effort. So in conclusion this person is a cheater and cheated on purpose to try and get an advantage.


By the way weed, it was Danny anderson and myself that had unconforming airducts.

And another argument in Daltons defense is, The Dimick's are supermoto racers....one of the first thing you do on a supermoto bike to comply to rules is route all your vent lines(fuel, crankcase, etc..) into a canister.

So this was more than likely their intent with their mod on their bike.

Your rushing to a "cheater" judgement is unfounded and without research.

I'm dissapointed in your above quote.

Danny and I are both in agreeance, as well as any other R1 rider, ask josh graham, that the stock ducts don't fit race body work. The intent of aftermarket ducts was to eliminate uneeded crap that doesn't work right. The only "advantage" I was looking for was to save myself some wear and tear on my shoes from walking around the track picking up airducts that fall out"

If there's a racer out there that really thinks he's going to improve his finishing position in a race by adding a Crankcase breather mod, or different air ducts, then he'd better look up the phone number for Ricky Orlando, or Mark Schellinger and take some riding lessons. I don't think Dalton Danny or myself fall into this category.

[Clarkie]

Somebody could be running illegal parts up to the weekend when the teardowns are going to happen then take them out or not even show up for the race that weekend.

This would never happen.

Ever.

I mean, no one would ever ride a 4 year old clapped out 600 instead of one of their 3 different GSBRRs at Pikes Puke just to avoid a well hidden (publicized) tear down.

Never. Not in a million years.

( BTW: Ben is not a cheater. He may be many things, but he is not a cheater. )


I remember that incident... Probably not many people here know what your talking about. The conflict of interest scenario i mentioned above, may be too much information.....woops, oh darn, oh well...

The above rider in question told me at the start of this year (when he decided to come out of retirement) exactly how bad he cheated and for how long and laughed about it, i asked why he would cheat as he would probably have won on a legal bike..... he said "hey they (the shop/s he rode for) built it for me so I rode it" which is a BS excuse. he also said he would get a phone call a week before the teardowns saying what was going to be looked at in tech and to remove it if possible, if it wasnt removable find another bike... (see above)

This person made a LOT of money and built his reputation as a 'Multi-year Club Racing Champion' cheating every weekend, to me he will always just be a 'Multi-year Club Racing CHEATER' even though I like the guy.

And people wonder why i have trust issues with certain people/shops in Colorado :roll:

[bluedevil]

I ran out of popcorn.. Anyone got any Gummy Bears of Jujubees ??

[The GECCO]

Obviously this topic will be covered at the next board meeting. This thread has been a good discussion but since it has gone off topic into finger pointing I'm going to lock it up now.