water 4 gas??? anyone tried this

[marty]

www.water4gas.com

i'm not sure if any folks out there have heard of this, but from 2nd hand info i have heard this works. in short you install a jar of water under your hood and with some electrodes you extract hydrogen from the water. the gas is then run out a line and into the intake on your vehicle. i have read and heard reported claims of 40-50% increases in fuel economy.

so my question is to the motor builders out there, is this B.S. or is there some validity to this theory?

would your ecu be working overtime if you didn't get a steady and consistent stream of hydrogen?

would this make your fuel mixture too lean because you would be pumping in more "air" after the mass air flow sensor?

would this system shorten the life of your motor?

any thoughts appreciated

[The GECCO]

This is, at best, a zero sum process.

It takes as much (or more) energy to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen as you would gain by burning the Hydrogen. That electricity has to come from somewhere.

As the price of gas continues to rise, more and more scam artists will try to convince people they have a quick fix - for a fee, of course.

[Jon]

For us diesel drivers there's interesting things in the pipeline. Have you heard of John Goodwin? Google him and check out some of his work.By God if I'm going to pay $7 bucks a gallon I'm watching this!

[ChickenStrip]

Didn't they try that on mythbusters?

[turbohoje]

check this out
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060227/FREE/302270007/1023/THISWEEKSISSUE

[marty]

Didn't they try that on mythbusters?
i think on myth busters they tried to run it just on hydrogen. this seems to use the hydrogen to assist the fuel. kinka like justin's comment below but without the 6th stroke

[T Baggins]

This is, at best, a zero sum process.

It takes as much (or more) energy to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen as you would gain by burning the Hydrogen. That electricity has to come from somewhere.

As the price of gas continues to rise, more and more scam artists will try to convince people they have a quick fix - for a fee, of course.

Awww, come on Glenn. why you gotta be such a killjoy??

You're smart enough probably to build one of these. I'll pay half the cost of the book if you'll build the unit. We can try it on my Sentra. If it works, we'll make MILLIONS!!! :lol:

[ChickenStrip]

I wonder if you can put a hose up your butt and run it right to your carburetor and run off the methane.

I would sell the kit for $123. It would come with 6 feet of fuel hose, one hose clamp and a cork. The kit would come with a color instruction booklet in 6 languages and braille. Also it would come with a money back guaranty if your not FULLY satisfied.

I'm a GENIUS!!!!

[marty]

This is, at best, a zero sum process.

It takes as much (or more) energy to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen as you would gain by burning the Hydrogen. That electricity has to come from somewhere.

As the price of gas continues to rise, more and more scam artists will try to convince people they have a quick fix - for a fee, of course.

i think in this system, the hydrogen is made from electrodes in salty water. so the only load on the system is electrical and draws no load from the engine

[OConnell]

This is, at best, a zero sum process.

It takes as much (or more) energy to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen as you would gain by burning the Hydrogen. That electricity has to come from somewhere.

As the price of gas continues to rise, more and more scam artists will try to convince people they have a quick fix - for a fee, of course.

i think in this system, the hydrogen is made from electrodes in salty water. so the only load on the system is electrical and draws no load from the engine

The electricity is generated from the motor, via an alternator. This does in fact put a load on the engine.

[marty]

This is, at best, a zero sum process.

It takes as much (or more) energy to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen as you would gain by burning the Hydrogen. That electricity has to come from somewhere.

As the price of gas continues to rise, more and more scam artists will try to convince people they have a quick fix - for a fee, of course.

i think in this system, the hydrogen is made from electrodes in salty water. so the only load on the system is electrical and draws no load from the engine

The electricity is generated from the motor, via an alternator. This does in fact put a load on the engine.
but i don't think it would put anymore of load than an auxiliary horn or stereo. seems like it is only two small wires that come from the fuse panel. by "load" i was referring to a heavy load, like a water pump, ac, power steering, etc.

i would try this, but my top concern would be motor health. would the hydrogen hurt the motor by causing a lean condition?

[The GECCO]

This is, at best, a zero sum process.

It takes as much (or more) energy to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen as you would gain by burning the Hydrogen. That electricity has to come from somewhere.

As the price of gas continues to rise, more and more scam artists will try to convince people they have a quick fix - for a fee, of course.

i think in this system, the hydrogen is made from electrodes in salty water. so the only load on the system is electrical and draws no load from the engine

Well, the electricity has to come from somewhere - energy isn't free. They downplay the amount of electricity needed to break the bond between the H and O moloecules, but I promise you it is significant. Running a generator large enough to do this will place a big load on the engine. Either that, or you will be carrying some big batteries around. Hydrogen has a very low BTU content, so burning it as a supplemental fuel will not recover the energy needed to get it from the water.

This is the main reason hydrogen fuel cells are I long way from being practical. A fuel cell takes pure hydrogen and combines it with oxygen, the by products are water and electricity. Hydrogen IS very plentiful, the problem is it isn't pure, its all locked up with oxygen in the form of water and water vapor. You take water, add electricity and you get pure hydrogen and oxygen. Sound familiar? A hydrogen fuel cell isn't really powered by hydrogen, its powered by the electricity it took to break the hydrogen away from the oxygen. When you recombine the H and O, you get the water and electricity back.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. Energy must first be put in before it can be recovered. Until we perfect 100% conservation of energy (not possible according to Einstein) this is a losing game. Ignoring the laws of energy conservation makes it a net zero at best. Think of the wound up rubberband that powers those little airplanes. It isn't an energy source, it only transfers the energy you put on it when you wound it up. The hydrogen, when still locked to the oxygen molecule, is just like the limp rubberband.

[marty]

fine then, i guess chicken strip wins, anyone else need any anal tubing to power their cars on methane :lol:

[kcecil]

Yes, let's look at the claims:
"Water4Gas technology CAN produce the following results"
"Possibly double your mileage"
Doesn't say it will, because that would be lying, which is illegal in an advertisement.
"Reduce engine temperature"
Of course it really won't, since a few ounces of water a day will not provide any significant cooling.
"Prevent global warming while you drive"
Except that water vapor is a more effective greenhouse gas than is carbon dioxide.

And they call it HHO or Brown's gas. Look up Brown's gas on wikipedia, it even addresses the fraudulence of these "burning water" claims.

Obviously, it's better to burn witches, since they float in water and are made of wood.

[The GECCO]

And they call it HHO or Brown's gas. Look up Brown's gas on wikipedia, it even addresses the fraudulence of these "burning water" claims.

Good call. I looked it up, found some things that are basically the same arguments I made, just a bit more technical and they have some backing citations. Here's some of what they say"


Applications - Claimed

Automotive

Oxyhydrogen is often mentioned in conjunction with devices that claim to increase automotive engine efficiency.

Many of these claims, prima facie, violate the Law of conservation of energy. To date, none of these claims have been proven, and most have been fraudulent.

Production

A pure stoichiometric mixture is most easily obtained by water electrolysis, which uses an electric current to dissociate the water molecules:

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2
combustion: 2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O

The energy required to generate the oxyhydrogen always exceeds the energy released by combusting it.

[benfoxmra95]

That's the biggest bunch of junk ass shit scam artist crap, I think I have ever seen.....

It's not even worth taking 10 minutes out of my life to type up several paragraphs explaining why it's a scam and won't work....!

Trust me on this, I know a thing or two about automotive fuel injection systems, and that crap is a scam, I have seen many of these types of scams over the years and it's amazing that they are popping back up now that fuel prices have risen lately.

If you want better fuel mileage take your car to a dyno shop and get it tuned for a "Lean Cruise" strategy.... and your fuel mileage will increase.

Basically the tuner will recalibrate the PCM to look for 16:1 at cruise when on the highway instead of 14.7:1

This is nothing new, GM cars have Lean cruise strategys already in the PCM software it's just not enabled in U.S. cars...(go figure) it's only enabled in GM cars over seas.... The GM tuning Software I have allows me to see this in the cars I have tuned here.

[froth]

So Ben:

Can they do something like that to my '97 7.3 Ford diesel?? Can I "rechip" it for better economy. I've also heard rumor that the Ford's turbo can be adjusted to keep the wastegate closed a bit more (tighten up a spring/rod?) to allow faster spool and a bit more pressure. Will this work, or simply pull the pin from the grenade a bit earlier?

thx

Fred

[benfoxmra95]

yes, your truck could be tuned for better economy, but... do you do that much driving in it when your not towing something? becuase you really can't lean them out too much and tow.

And good gas mileage and towing just don't go together.

The best thing you could do is put higher gears in your truck, get the RPMS down.

Yes the turbo could be modded for more boost..... Like anything HP comes with a cost, you'll be shortening the fuse on it.

I see all these guys jacking the boost up on their trucks, and sure they'll make 700+ lbs of torque but the whole driveline has to absorb that power, your just shortening the life of your truck.

I look at it this way, my truck 99 f350 was designed by ford to last for something like 300,000+ miles if taken care of properly, and I really want it to last that long because I can't justifty wearing out a perfectly good truck in under 7 years, I bought my truck in anticipation it would last for 15+ years.

Pfft.....looks like its going to last a lot longer now that it spends even more time parked becuase f'n diesel is out of hand

[The GECCO]

What Ben says about taller gearing is true, it will help mileage, but be sure to also install an EGT gauge and keep an eye on it, especially when towing. Lowering the RPM's will increase exhaust gas temps (everything else being equal) and diesels are capable of melting themselves down if you let them!

[froth]

COOL! I think you just saved me like $2500! I think it will simply get a wash and wax, and maybe vaccume the interior, then.