Transponders for 2008

[dragos13]

Looking over the membership packet I see that transponders can be purchased for $240. Are these for brand new transponders? or the left over ones from last year? Also, what brands are acceptable with the MRA?

[The GECCO]

The $240 is for a used transponder from our fleet. Last years price was at a discount because members had already paid the $60 transponder fee as part of their 2007 membership. The $240 is on the low side of the general market value based on what they are fetching in other clubs like WERA, etc, that have been requiring personal transponders long enough for a "used transponder market" to develop. As an aside, this was the reason we only allowed one transponder sale per rider last season, otherwise our members could have bought MRA transponders and sold them for a profit to members of other clubs.

Our system is by AMB, so their transponders must be used. If you would like to buy a new one you can go here http://www.amb-it.com/motorcycle-racing-transponders-c-10_12.html?osCsid=dbb5cda26e9eaf1b256b5208b32d5e1b The hardwired model is cheaper, but bear in mind that it can't be easily swapped to another bike if needed.

[dragos13]

Thanks for the reply Glenn. I also sent you a PM.

[cu260r6]

Hey Glenn do you know if the AMB 160 model will work as well? It's a ton cheaper than the 260.

[The GECCO]

Hey Glenn do you know if the AMB 160 model will work as well? It's a ton cheaper than the 260.

Technically - yes, it would trigger our loop.

However, I would advise against buying one. The 160 is a Kart transponder that has a weaker signal because it is designed for a max mounting height of 30cm (about 11.8 inches).

If you want to mount your transponder high enough on the fork leg to afford decent crash protection the 160 won't work.

[froth]

Or you could just use MY method. Simply go slow enough that crashing doesn't occur, nor does that troublesome and dangerous part about passing someone happed that often, either.

[OConnell]

Glen,

If we are going to run multiple bikes, and would rather run a hardwire transponder, will our current method of data collection allow us to run different transponders on each bike?

[motobum]

does AMB repair transponders?

[The GECCO]

I'm nut sure, Justin, I will have to defer to Chris Dale on this one as he knows the system much better than I do.

My gut tells me it's certainly feasible, but the question is - would it create a headache significant enough that we would be better off to say "one transponder per MRA number, period"?

[Throttleroller277]

What about having some sort of "Quick Connect" to the Hard Power on each bike, so you can use the same transponder on multiple bikes?? 8)

Just a thought.

[DingleBerns]

Benny, here is the repair form that you need to fill out if you decide for AMB to repair the transponder....

http://www.amb-it.com/download/forms/AMBUS_Repair_Form.pdf

Dingle

[The GECCO]

What about having some sort of "Quick Connect" to the Hard Power on each bike, so you can use the same transponder on multiple bikes?? 8)

Just a thought.

There ya go!

[T Baggins]

Glen,

If we are going to run multiple bikes, and would rather run a hardwire transponder, will our current method of data collection allow us to run different transponders on each bike?

No. The system won't allow us to have more than one transponder number assigned to a rider. We tried it last year and failed miserably.

The quick-connect sounds like the smart way to go.

[OConnell]

Awww... I just wanted to be lazy and not have to do anything between races (assuming I didn't crash), it's the American way. Ill probably just use a battery transponder if I have to switch. Although I may look into a quick connect so I don't have to worry about forgetting to charge.

[motobum]

Benny, here is the repair form that you need to fill out if you decide for AMB to repair the transponder....

http://www.amb-it.com/download/forms/AMBUS_Repair_Form.pdf

Dingle

thanks dingle

[Scored51]

Benny, here is the repair form that you need to fill out if you decide for AMB to repair the transponder....

http://www.amb-it.com/download/forms/AMBUS_Repair_Form.pdf

Dingle

thanks dingle

The second page of this form contains incorrect information (as per AMB-it). The used fleet of transponders being sold to members fall under a pro-rated warranty from AMB. I believe these units were purchased in 2003, but I'll need to investigate case by case. here is the warranty schedule:

Years 1 to 3 is full replacement at no cost to purchaser.
Years 4 to 6 is 50% replacement coverage to purchaser.
Years 7 to 8 is 20% replacement coverage to purchaser.

This assumes the units are being sent in for repair with issues other than crash or fire damage (...be forewarned R6 riders!). So you can ignore the second page of the aforementioned PDF.

It is possible to hard wire/quick disconnect the transponders to your bike with a simple positive and negative lead. However, the battery within the unit must still be in good working order to pass the current through it to power the transponder. I was told a rumor once that a transponder's life was extended by a season with this method when it wouldn't hold a charge but would pass the electricity through to the necessary electronics. The problem is when to do this because if the battery is any good, this method will deteriorate the battery more rapidly as it isn't going through a proper charge/discharge cycle.

The final option is to disassemble the transponder and remove the battery completely. These units are solid state. Once the cover is unscrewed, the internals (circuitry and battery) are encased in an aerated silicone of some kind. It would definitely void the warranty and most likely destroy the unit to cut this material away as the location of the battery cannot be seen. (Please let me know if anyone has access to an x-ray machine!)

[The GECCO]

Chris, regarding the hard wiring they are talking about the other model from AMB that has no battery, it is designed to be hardwired into the vehicles electrical system.

[The GECCO]

I never thought about hardwiring in one of the rechargables - does it actually need 12-14vdc? Even though I built the charging stations I don't recall the output of the power supplies, is it 12vdc?

[T Baggins]

I have access to X-Ray - just in case...

[Scored51]

I never thought about hardwiring in one of the rechargables - does it actually need 12-14vdc? Even though I built the charging stations I don't recall the output of the power supplies, is it 12vdc?

Yes, the cases actually have a 12VDC computer laptop style supply. I don't understand electronics well enough to give a good reason as to why they recommend a 9 volt battery to put a transponder into sleep mode. Maybe it's just convenient because the battery fits the contacts. The newer units will actually accomplish this without having to remove them from the AMB case.

It's been a while since I inquired with AMB-it about the battery vs. hardwire models, but I believe the official answer was the two transponder models were different. I can't really see how as each talk to the same system in the same way, and the difference in price is equal to what they charge (no pun intended) for the personal charging kit.

[Jon]

As I will be using my present AMD transponder with both AHRMA, and MRA this season and have been following the recommendations for the Transponder charging /discharging. How much longer will the present transponder last? I've heard 2010 but since I've rented it for what? four seasons and paid $60 a season to do so on top of the transponder fees for four seasons and signed up for five years of endurance racing some of which applied to the transponder fund. What is the true cost of the presently owned transponder? An economic question that I believe can be answered by Tony but Chris as you have much insite, I'm interested in what my recourse for keeping it beyond and getting as much use out of it as possible. Thanks, Jon

[Scored51]

Jon,

The design life of these units is 7 years which would put us into the 2010 race season. However, the prorated warranty would suggest that AMB is confident of their product providing continued service beyond this age. In addition, I will be investigating the possibility of converting these units to be vehicle powered as I have purchased one of the rental fleet myself. What I will suggest is following the "care & feeding" instructions and forward me any observations of what you think may work and may not work.

The economics would be better addressed by the board than myself, but remember the true cost must include the proprietary hardware and software as well as the computer to run it. I remember numbers of $80,000 - 100,000 being tossed around when the club was trying to make its initial purchase from AMB. (Note: My figures are vague as it was a difficult time for the club and I was not personally involved.) This would nearly double the price tag of each unit as it was assigned it's share of the total system costs.

These are my .02 and is meant to be an opinion and only one opinion.

[Jon]

Chris,
As an ongoing than outgoing board member at the time I remember a different number thrown around but then again this was during the Dratlogate era and those numbers could not be totally trusted at the time. I do remember and looking at my notes how they were paid for with installements and how the club used the Endurance races and other fees tacked onto pay for them. My cost after four years at $60 per year and the $180 paid last year places the cost at $420 the same as a new unit presently for sale by AMD. So anyhow you see my interest in keeping mine alive. Please share your ongoing research as to how we can keep them going for years to come. I don't see a reason that they shouldn't be able to be upgraded and last a lifetime by just replaced the battery. once it's done. Thanks regardless and have a great day!

[turbohoje]

i havent tried, but i heard if you opened one up the contents are suspended in glue or something. has anybody vfy'd this? if your battery were to die, could you get it open, dremel/cut out the old battery, order another of similar type, and solder it in? i dont even know if the case halves come apart or not.

[The GECCO]

i havent tried, but i heard if you opened one up the contents are suspended in glue or something. has anybody vfy'd this? if your battery were to die, could you get it open, dremel/cut out the old battery, order another of similar type, and solder it in? i dont even know if the case halves come apart or not.

Yes, all the internals are "potted". What you suggest would be difficult, but it seems possible...worst case scenario is that you STILL have to buy a new transponder, right?

[T Baggins]

Hey Jon,

Your math is pretty accurate. At $60 per year, for 7 years (the anticipated life) you will have paid $420 if we continued the rental program in it's previous form.

Having rented it for 4 years ($240) and then buying it last season for ($180) you're still at $420 - but the difference is that you own the tranponder now and are free to do with it whatever you please - including selling it and recouping at least some of your costs (if you so choose).

Chris is correct that the computer, software, associated hardware, brackets, charging kits, carrying cases, charging cases (gun cases converted) and all that are over and above the cost of the transponder itself. So questioning solely the cost of the transponder doesn't tell the whole story.

I was not on the board yet either (although I was involved shortly thereafter) and I think the original purchase included 100 transponders (no individual chargers or anything like that), the software, and things like the loop, etc. If I recall the original cost was more than $50k but less than $60k. I'm not being dodgy, just don't know for sure. I also recall that this transaction was initiated by our former president, and without the approval or knowledge of the board. Guess he did something good after all... but we all struggled to figure out a way to pay for them following his untimely departure - which is where the rental program came from. Anyway, we have since purchased an additional 100 transponders at around $375 each (average), and then the charging kits we sold with the transponders were $35 each and to date we've purchased 100 (with another 100 needed at this point for 2008).

So, round numbers - the Club is into the transponder system between $94,500 and say $104,500.

The rental program to date (assuming we've collected $60 from a minimum of 170 racers per year) has netted about $40,800. Sales of approx 100 transponders last year at $180 per gained $18,000, and assuming we'll sell the remaining 100 at $240 each we'll tack on another $24,000. That totals $82,800 so we're still short on the initial investment by quite a large sum. If we continued the rental program for the next three years, using the above figures (which are probably a bit generous as far as membership), we'd collect another $30,600, which basically covers the initial investment - but then the club would own 200 transponders that could rapidly start expiring. The club would have no viable transponders to rent at that point, and we'd be back to zero.

Here's the real deal, though. With the reduction of membership over the past several years, significant increase in costs of track rental and insurance, and the added expense of taking the club "on the road" for every event - we simply won't have the money in the coffers to replace the transponders when they need to be retired. And since this is a "club" everyone would have to share equally in the cost to replace the transponders.

So giving the members the opportunity to buy perfectly good transponders at a reduced rate "now" rather than tacking on an additional $420 to everyone's membership fee in 2010 seemed like the most reasonable approach. And, as I said before, each of you will actually OWN the transponder so it is an asset you can use as you wish, take with you if you travel to other clubs, or sell it if you quit racing.

Probably more info than you wanted, but that's how I roll... :)

[Scored51]

Yes, all the internals are "potted". What you suggest would be difficult, but it seems possible...worst case scenario is that you STILL have to buy a new transponder, right?

I am in possession of at least one transponder put to rest by crash damage. I don't have a time table as we're all gearing up for the new season, but an autopsy will be done to figure out what can be done. I would also add this discussion is about an event that has not occurred yet, and if individual units do fail, the sold units are still well within the prorated warranty period offered be AMB. In the meantime, I encourage everyone to share with me anything they have found with their experience.

Thanks!

[OConnell]

Any updates on the autopsy? If there are any uncertainties, let me know and I can take a look at what you have (I am an Electrical Engineer).

[Scored51]

Yes, I found my hammer and have successfully dissected our guinea pig. Once I recollected the parts with a broom and dustpan...

Seriously though, the older transponders have a rechargeable 1.2 volt NiHM battery potted inside the case. For this reason, I don't believe we will be able to simply solder pig tails onto the transponder and run it from the bike's 12 volt power source. That being said, I've tracked down the manufacturer of this special battery and need to check on price and availability.

Once we have the replacement materials, I'll need to create a process to cleanly extract the old battery, install the new, and re-pot the entire unit. However, this is something all in the future. The transponders sold by the MRA are still covered under a prorated warranty by AMB-it. I'm looking to the replacement scenario when these units are no longer covered and can be rejuvenated by a simple battery replacement.

That's all for now,

[OConnell]

How big is the batttery, and do you have specs on current requirements?

A reliable regulator could be designed for under $10, allowing it to be connected to the bike 12V. That is, if we can figure out how to get into the unit without destroying it :)

[JohnGarc]

This is probably a stupid question but can we use the RC transponders? They are much cheaper and seem to do the same thing?


THanks,
John

[Scored51]

I'm not familiar with the application, but I would guess: no. While the tranpsonders have received design updates from AMB-it, it is still the same technology. These are "active transponders" that transmit a unique signal unto themselves. I'm guessing the RC application is a "passive transponder" like an ignition key for a car or a chip belt that they use in triathlon. Instead of the transponder introducing itself to the system, it sits in the corner waiting for the system to notice it's there. (Ah, the memories of high school dances.)

That being said, I'm always interested to know more. Send me an Email, c.dale@comcast.net with some pictures if you can of what you're proposing.

Thanks,