PMP update from Jay Gilman

[The GECCO]

From a statement issued by Jay Gilman:


Dec 3, 2007 PMP - Plans Roadcourse Upgrades
PMP General Manager Jay Gilman announced today-

PMP will make some changes to the roadcourse configuration for 2008. Turn 10 will be changed to a 90 degree right hand turn by moving the apex of the turn some 60 feet to the south of the existing apex. This change will negate NHRA's requirement that the concrete walls be moved into the edge of the straightaway as was originally mandated by June 2009. Martyn Thake of Motorsports Consulting reviewed the track late in the summer and this was one of his recommendations for the track's improvement.

Other suggestions dealt with corner station placement, additional curbs, and the pit-on road.

PMP will undertake resurfacing from the exit of turn 9 into turn 10 and moving the dragstrip burnout box further downtrack to minimize varying track surfaces that upset roadrace vehicle suspensions.

Other changes will include moving the berm before turn 8 back some distance and installing gravel runoffs at turns 8 and 10. The pit on access will be widened and a merge lane painted to prevent a potential problem with racers accelerating onto the track and those coming down the main straightaway at speed.

Thank you for your support of PMP.

[bluedevil]

woot !! Cant wait to see it done ....

[akuretz]

Wow, this sounds like it should make some good improvements!

[turbohoje]

for turn 10, does that mean that the cones will be moved more like a 90 and that section of the track will be resurfaced? or will something be laid down (like a skirt or paint or something) that more or less defines the turn w/o cones.

[Clarkie]

So this will mean that since it is a reconfigured track, there will be a new lap record set by the fastest person to complate the first lap of the first race of the year, depending on the race schedule this could mean a novice could 'officially' have the lap record 8)

[dragos13]

maybe they can put in a curb instead of using the cones. just clean it up a bit. and while they are at it, curbs in turn 9 would be super nice too. just my opinion but an inside curb and extending the curb on the exit would help that section ALOT.

[akuretz]

So this will mean that since it is a reconfigured track, there will be a new lap record set by the fastest person to complate the first lap of the first race of the year, depending on the race schedule this could mean a novice could 'officially' have the lap record 8)

LWGP is first race. :D

Unless you count endurance...

[cu260r6]

I have no sense of direction, so is 60ft south closer to the tower's current location or father away?

[bluedevil]

I have no sense of direction, so is 60ft south closer to the tower's current location or father away?

further... in effect potentially lengthens the straight a bit

[The GECCO]

I have no sense of direction, so is 60ft south closer to the tower's current location or father away?

It's further away. The end result is that the road course through there will be somewhat narrower, will stay to the left longer approaching T10, and T10 will have a much smaller radius (ie, a sharper turn). This should make for another passing zone under braking. As it is now, you have to beat someone pretty badly in order to pass going into T10.

This will make the front straight slightly longer, but you'll carry much less momentum going into it. Based on other testing, this will add 2-5 seconds to the lap times depending on the rider and how much HP the bike has.

[dragos13]

can someone give us an example using this pic
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z151/dragos901/CIMG0927.jpg

[dave.gallant]

http://www.motosix.com/albums/MiscCrap/CIMG0927x.jpg

[dragos13]

i meant an example of how it "will" be. not how it is now.

[The GECCO]

As viewed from above...the new pavement will be outside the dashed line in the second drawing

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/TheGECCO/image1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/TheGECCO/image2.jpg

[Clarkie]

hmmm......... i am going to need more hp ](*,)

[dave.gallant]

hmmm......... i am going to need more hp ](*,)

Just think of it this way - now you have more straight away for that 1000cc cheater bike! :)

[Clarkie]

you mean 1200 right? no way a SS bike let alone a 1000cc bike can keep up with a stroker R1 :lol:

[dave.gallant]

you mean 1200 right? no way a SS bike let alone a 1000cc bike can keep up with a stroker R1 :lol:

I knew it!

Damn cheater.

[turbohoje]

thanks dave, i almost spit out my drink with the example.
for real LOL

[cromer611]

so is the new pavement from the doted line to the left or from the line to the right?

[Lel399]

That example is what i was picturing in my head... but as casey said, is it going to just be cones out in the middle of nowhere? or is there going to be some sort of soft break in track surface? (ie the PPIR yellow banana!!!)

and also... will this give us the ability to run in the rain?

lel

[The GECCO]

They are only putting down new pavement outside the dashed lines in the drawing, this will delineate the roadcourse. I don't know yet if there will be any curbing or anything on the inside edge of the new pavement.

This will not make it possible to run in the rain. The slick part of the track will still be there, this change will simply mean you are going over it upright (at WOT) as opposed to going over it while transitioning from nearly full lean to upright while accelerating.

But, anyone who watched Applesauce highside a stock SV650 while upright and accelerating over the slick stuff knows it still won't be safe in the rain.

[Throttleroller277]

This will not make it possible to run in the rain.

But, anyone who watched Applesauce highside a stock SV650 while upright and accelerating over the slick stuff knows it still won't be safe in the rain.

I second that!! Both parts: Possible to run in the rain, but i saw Mike's crash, and ..............yeah!

I'm in though! It will be just as slick for one guy, as it is for the next guy! 8) 8)

[dave.gallant]

This will not make it possible to run in the rain. The slick part of the track will still be there, this change will simply mean you are going over it upright (at WOT) as opposed to going over it while transitioning from nearly full lean to upright while accelerating.

Everyone knows SV650s don't accelerate. We simply refuse to slow down!

:D

( And, for the record, Mike and I were catching those pesky 600s. The fact that it was snowing was only helping our cause. :) )

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

But, anyone who watched Applesauce highside a stock SV650 while upright and accelerating over the slick stuff knows it still won't be safe in the rain.
I call http://users.frii.com/jjb/emote/bs.gif

I was able to get through there just fine on my Ape w/slicks during the same rainstorm. With apologies to Mike, I don't think it was 100% the track's fault.

I think we need to reassess the surface before making a decision that it's not good enough for a wet race. From what it looks like, we won't be going anywhere near the nasty areas.

If not, what would it take to allow us to race in the rain there?

[Clarkie]

if we can race at 100% in the rain I am game, but dont expect any of the fast ROR guys chasing a championship to 'just take it easy' around the track, same with having a 'no passing zone' or permanent waving yellow, if we race we race.

It's either safe or it's not, if the club/track/board/rider reps decide we race in the rain at Pueblo it's game on :twisted:

[motobum]

can we just widen the hot pit and use that for the front straight instead of the drag strip?

then we could race in the rain.

[dave.gallant]

FWIW, I could very easily spin the rear tire on my stock SV650 in only damp conditions. Straight up and down, not leaned over, past the tree plate in the ground.

Jimbo - Were you riding your Aprilia or driving your dually?

Where is Dwayne when ya need him...

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

can we just widen the hot pit and use that for the front straight instead of the drag strip?
then we could race in the rain.
Think about it Benelicious - you'd be leaned way over pointed at the guardrail where Tawny sits and exiting next to the tower. yikes.

Seriously, with the decreased speed, the tighter turn 10, and an exit that's to the left of the drag launch area, I think we need to take a look when it's done before making a judgement that we're not going to use it in the wet.

Who's in?

Brownie, you want to do that squirrell suit flying thing but you don't want to do turn 10 in the rain? http://users.frii.com/jjb/emote/wtf.gif

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

FWIW, I could very easily spin the rear tire on my stock SV650 in only damp conditions. Straight up and down, not leaned over, past the tree plate in the ground.
Which we won't be going over anymore - which is my point.


Jimbo - Were you riding your Aprilia or driving your dually?

Sorry Ape = Aprilia. I don't have a dually. And about Dwayne - he was on slicks when he flambe'd.

[dave.gallant]

FWIW, I could very easily spin the rear tire on my stock SV650 in only damp conditions. Straight up and down, not leaned over, past the tree plate in the ground.
Which we won't be going over anymore - which is my point.


Jimbo - Were you riding your Aprilia or driving your dually?

Sorry Ape = Aprilia. I don't have a dually. And about Dwayne - he was on slicks when he flambe'd.

I am lost then.

How would we NOT be going over the pavement from the tower to start finish? (really, the slick stuff is only until just after the tree; the tree cover itself is easy to miss itself, and the best traction is right down the middle in the rain)

My recent years have been on DOTs, and to be honest, they are not any different than slicks now.

Dwayne is definitely more of man than the two of us however, so it is easy to understand how he could launch his bike into low-earth orbit. :)

I thought the pavement change was up until turn 10, somewhat increasing the length of the front straight?

[motobum]

Brownie, you want to do that squirrell suit flying thing but you don't want to do turn 10 in the rain? http://users.frii.com/jjb/emote/wtf.gif

:lol: haha

Jim i love it when you call me Benelicious! :D

[dave.gallant]

Oh wait.

It looks like there would be new pavement on the exit as well.

COOOL!

Lets race this sucker in the rain!!!!!!

[cu260r6]

It's my understanding that the combination of the traction compound and the extra rubber laid down by the cars is what makes the area so slick in the rain, not the pavement itself necessarily. If they move the burnout area to between 9 and 10 will the exit of t10 become grippier? If so then having a slick area between 9 and 10 isn't nearly as bad as having it right next to a wall in 10. I just bought rain tires, so lets race.:)

[The GECCO]

The burnout area and start line of the drag strip will be unchanged. The new pavement will end before the slick stuff starts.

My opinion is that these changes will have zero effect on our ability to run there in the rain. The "problem" part of the track will not change at all, the only change is the direction the bikes are pointed when they go over it. Before they were leaned over at partial throttle, next year they will be straight up and down, but at WOT. You'll still need traction that isn't there. When I went out in my Dodge in the wet it spun the tires past start/finish quite easily.

If a stock SV can break loose then it's a pile up waiting to happen. At least with the old configuration the track was "self-cleaning" because when the bike went down (while turning) Newton's first law would carry it off the track. Under the new configuration the downed bike would most likely stay in traffic longer (as Mike's SV did when he cleared the turn but crashed while accelerating).

[Wild Cheetah 612]

Jimbo, you're just a stud! You'd race in the freakin' snow. Some of us just like a little traction.

[Throttleroller277]

Who's in?

Brownie, you want to do that squirrell suit flying thing but you don't want to do turn 10 in the rain? http://users.frii.com/jjb/emote/wtf.gif



Jim - go back and read my post again.
I said I'm in! It will be just as slick for one guy, as it is for the next guy. :D The weekend that we're refering to when Mike crashed, we took a vote at the riders meeting, and I was "in" at that time.

We can run it in the rain, and yes it will be slick.

Lay out the new corner, bring in the water truck, and let's see how slick it is. 8) 8)

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Jim - go back and read my post again.
I said I'm in!
Oops, sorry, I misread it...


It will be just as slick for one guy, as it is for the next guy.
Amen.

Gecco, I'm not buying the "stock SV breaking loose" argument. Almost any bike is capable of spinning a DOT on wet pavement. Same with your truck.

My point is this - every wet track has variables amounts of reduced traction - in some places it's more slippery than others; some places develop puddles; other places have streams across the track, some of which have mud in 'em. Some paint lines & curbing have grip, others don't.

Part of rain racing is figuring these differences out and dealing with them better than your competiton.

So if the area exiting 10 is slicker than exiting 4 or 7 or 9 or whatever, use less throttle - and don't be ham-fisted with it. It's really not that hard to figure out.

[dave.gallant]

Gecco, I'm not buying the "stock SV breaking loose" argument. Almost any bike is capable of spinning a DOT on wet pavement. Same with your truck.

...

So if the area exiting 10 is slicker than exiting 4 or 7 or 9 or whatever, use less throttle - and don't be ham-fisted with it. It's really not that hard to figure out.

I have been racing with this club for a long time now.

If we ever attempt to race across that section in the rain, I simply will not race because it is not within reasonable margins of safety. If you want to peel our friends off the wall, thats fine, but I want no part of it.

No offense to PMI of course. I love the track and the management is now great. The traction compound just complicates things for the bikes...

[Lel399]

I have to agree with Jim and then pose the question then, as he did... WHAT would it take to make rain racing possible at pueblo?

I agree 100% glens assesment that we now may run into a problem where the bike is staying in the race line, and thats not cool.

HOWEVER as Jim said, its slicker there, and its just as slick for everyone. I agree the whole 'x bike can break it loose' is moot. That day in question it wasnt that it was just wet... it was snowing. Cold + race tires + the straight away is more of an issue than a warm summer rain. IMHO it should be reevaluated once the track is done.

lel

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

If we ever attempt to race across that section in the rain, I simply will not race because it is not within reasonable margins of safety.
Dave, I respect your opinion here and it's totally your option not to race in the wet at PMI regardless of any decisions.

But since nobody has seen the new line through 10, I don't think we can already decide that we'll be peeling people off of the wall or dealing with piles of bikes on the exit.

(Actually, I thought going through the mogul field in 10 this past year wasn't reasonably safe - so I went slower & ended up off of the podium. That's how I dealt with it.)

[The GECCO]

Gecco, I'm not buying the "stock SV breaking loose" argument. Almost any bike is capable of spinning a DOT on wet pavement.
Show me ANY stock SV (at 5000' elevation, in second gear with no clutch manipulation) that will break traction on pavement that is wet, but otherwise perfectly good. I don't see it happening. No one straightline high sided coming out of any other turns that day nor during the mud-fest at MPH.


(Actually, I thought going through the mogul field in 10 this past year wasn't reasonably safe - so I went slower & ended up off of the podium. That's how I dealt with it.)
Not the same thing, the drag strip is only dangerous when it's wet and all we have to do to race again is wait for it to dry. The mogul field doesn't change drastically from lap to lap with the weather, and waiting an hour won't make it any smoother.


I have to agree with Jim and then pose the question then, as he did... WHAT would it take to make rain racing possible at pueblo?
In my opinion, it would require having access to a "race-width" strip of pavement from T10 well past start/finish that has not had nor will ever have traction compound applied to it.

During the rain (the day of the 4 hour endurance race, when it was plenty warm) I have gone out to the start line of the drag strip, gotten a running start and slid my tennis shoes across the pavement similar to how you can on an ice skating rink. The idea of racing motorcycles on such a surface is just silly, IMHO.

[Wild Cheetah 612]

The idea of racing motorcycles on such a surface is just silly, IMHO.


If we ever attempt to race across that section in the rain, I simply will not race because it is not within reasonable margins of safety.

I agree with both you guys!
Unless, of course, the cornerworkers have giant sheets of metal and can play "Pong" with the racers.
http://websmileys.com/sm/sport/sport16.gif

[Mark Schellinger]

But since nobody has seen the new line through 10,

I rode the new layout, back in the middle of the summer. It was
not raining and I was not on a SV (and never will be).

Jay set out a single cone, and after the track closed for the day he asked
me and a car to try it out. He did some times and it seemed to slow me down about 3 seconds a lap. I only did about 6 laps, I am old.
It was cool, braking hard, turning quick, and then blasting off down the straight.

I later walked out there and I could see skinny blackies from my rear tire while braking, and then, fatties as I went through the current staging lanes. :)

I think it will be funner and safer than it is now.
It will definitely be the same for everbody.

For sure new track record coming up Brad?Josh?Aaron?Dan-???

Can't wait to see who gets it.

Later

[Throttleroller277]

The sunday after the Spider Bob track day, Jay set out the cone for Ara and I as well. It seemed pretty cool. I was not catching any times, but it did seem a lot safer in the case of a crash. If for some reason you had to blow the corner, and shot strait off, the chain link fence is still there, but a further distance out than the wall. But with the Gravel trap installed as mentioned in an earlier post, I don't think it would be much an issue. 8) 8)

My 2 cents 8)

[The GECCO]

The sunday after the Spider Bob track day, Jay set out the cone for Ara and I as well. It seemed pretty cool. I was not catching any times, but it did seem a lot safer in the case of a crash. If for some reason you had to blow the corner, and shot strait off, the chain link fence is still there, but a further distance out than the wall. But with the Gravel trap installed as mentioned in an earlier post, I don't think it would be much an issue. 8) 8)

My 2 cents 8)

My understanding is that they are planning on moving the fence back and leveling off the ground some to make it safer than it would be if the current fencing, etc, were left there.

Jay? Earlene? Can you confirm I haven't lost my marbles?

[jplracing]

Glen,

I believe that "fence" your reffering to is the berm in t8. I think the land on the other side of the fence (outside of the straight) is owned by the BLM and not pueblo

But then again what do I know

Joe

[Mark Schellinger]

Glenn you have lost your marbles, the Cobra is proof of that.

But, Jay told me they were gonna remove the chainlink fence that is currently in the runoff area for the new turn 10.

:)

[froth]

What would the effect of rain tires be???? If it's wet enough to call for them, would the super soft compound help with the traction compound and all? Could we run the old motard machinery and simply enjoy a lesson from Brownie going slideways???

[Clarkie]

For sure new track record coming up Brad?Josh?Aaron?Dan-???

Dont forget Brownie! 8)

[The GECCO]

Glen,

I believe that "fence" your reffering to is the berm in t8. I think the land on the other side of the fence (outside of the straight) is owned by the BLM and not pueblo

Joe

Joe,

The land West of the dragstrip is all part of the "Honor Farm" and is owned by the city, same as the rest of the land that all of PMP sits on, so Jay and PMI should be able to expand the runoff West of T10 into that land if necessary.

I think the confusion over ownership comes from the new "no-riding" policy on that part of the Honor Farm property. Technically, that land has always been off-limits to motorized vehicles, but that policy has only recently been enforced with any vigor as part of the new directives regarding the use and management of the Honor Farm property.

G

[Jon]

I personally don't mind racing in the rain if the conditions warrant it but there are places that are best not so. Daytona being one and until we see the new Pueblo turn ten would think it might just be one of them as well. I would have to suggest holding off on this discussion until such a time as we can see how the new turn lays out. In the mean time all you riders out there itching to race in the rain. Why don't you guys head east you'll get plenty of experience. West to Portland will also give you what you desire. Hell from the sound of it the conditions are perfect done in Pueblo probably for a bit of track time. Until I and others see the new turn ten at Pueblo I just believe the off season not the time to be making the call.

[Earlene]

I just read these postings and will ask Jay to come on today and address the concerns and clarify things for all of us.

Thanks,
Ene