Maxima Cool Aide Acceptable @ HPR ?

[Airbag79]

Is Maxima Cool-Aide accetable at HPR? It is non glycol based, and says it's approved for racing on paved surfaces. Freezes at 32 F too. HPR only speaks to Watter Wetter and Distilled water though. I called HPR, but no response. Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.

[jplracing]

For HPR I would suggest contacting Glenn via the email on hpr 's site. He is the final authority.

[Airbag79]

For HPR I would suggest contacting Glenn via the email on hpr 's site. He is the final authority.

Will do, thanks.

[Airbag79]

For anyone curious, it's NOT approved.

[WolFeYeZ]

For anyone curious, it's NOT approved.

Im even more curious than that... why not?

[hcr25]

My guess it's not allowed for the same reason it's not allowed in the MRA.

It's "Glycol" based. Most race clubs probably won't allow it.

[blaircsf]

http://www.maximausa.com/product/cool-aide-ready-to-use/
"Glycol, Nitrate, Amine, Borax Free!" ?

I use water, usually some water wetter as well, so it really doesn't matter to me. Looking at them though, this doesn't look that different from the approved fluids.

[hcr25]

I guessed wrong, seems most of these products are glycol based, this one is not. I have not heard of this product but i only use water in my race bikes anyway.

[blaircsf]

I guessed wrong, seems most of these products are glycol based, this one is not. I have not heard of this product but i only use water in my race bikes anyway.

I know there are a lot of glycol based additives, and I'm sure people ask about them all the time. Since this one was specifically asked about (and isn't glycol), I'm curious if there is something else that leads to it not being approved.

Edit: I have no plans of using this, just idle curiosity now.

[Airbag79]

I guessed wrong, seems most of these products are glycol based, this one is not. I have not heard of this product but i only use water in my race bikes anyway.

Honestly, I really don't understand why. I can't find a sound technical reason why not. As this product is "approved for racing on paved surfaces". It utilizes a "glycol blend", just like the other manufactures use. None use pure ethylene-glycol, or they would have the antifreeze capability. It boils down to is it slippery/pain to clean or not, and it's not anymore slippery or painful to clean than the competitors. Lots of racing orgs authorize it. I'm not going to fight City Hall though either.

The problem I have, is accordingly to my dealer my warranty is null and void for any cooling system component if I use Water Wetter (supposedly worst corrosion protection and lubrication available), but Maxima Cool Aide is covered by my dealer. Royal Purple Ice and Motul Mo cool are allowable too. Motul seems to be on par with Water Wetter, from a corrosion inhibitor standpoint. Royal Purple looks promising though. I am going to see if my dealer will warranty it. It appears to advertise similar corrosion inhibitor and lubrication performance to Cool Aide.

[WolFeYeZ]

It utilizes a "glycol blend", just like the other manufactures use.

So it does have Glycol then? I'm confused...

[blaircsf]

Looks to me like they have two products:
Coolanol: http://www.maximausa.com/product/coolanol/
Cool-aide: http://www.maximausa.com/product/cool-aide-ready-to-use/

Coolanol is glycol based, cool-aide it says isn't. Cool-aide to me looks like just a different brands version of water wetter.

[hcr25]

Who "approves" it for roadracing on pavement? I doubt you'll find one race club that allows it. I was told the AMA has changed their rule this year to water only. No additives of any kind.

I understand the fear of voiding your warranty. That being said from 1996 to 2010 I used water and water wetter in my race bikes. I never had a single problem from doing that. After that I've used water only.

Maybe it would be a problem if you ran it in your bike for thousands of miles over many years. In Colorado track day motorcycles get system flushes at least twice a year unless you are brave or lazy.

[Airbag79]

Who "approves" it for roadracing on pavement? I doubt you'll find one race club that allows it. I was told the AMA has changed their rule this year to water only. No additives of any kind.

I understand the fear of voiding your warranty. That being said from 1996 to 2010 I used water and water wetter in my race bikes. I never had a single problem from doing that. After that I've used water only.

Maybe it would be a problem if you ran it in your bike for thousands of miles over many years. In Colorado track day motorcycles get system flushes at least twice a year unless you are brave or lazy.

I'm not sure what governing body gave it it's approval, but it's stated on their product website. From the information I can find, it's no different from Water Wetter or Royal purple Ice. It's non-glycol based (non pure ethylene glycol, the nasty slippery hard to clean stuff). But it does use a "glycol blend" (just like the others) for lubrication and corrosion protection. The big difference is there is no ethylene glycol. At least that's the info I am finding. I'm by no means an expert on this, but if someone knows more, I would really like to understand the differences if any.

A very trusted mechanic on the forum swears by Maxima Cool Aide, I don't know of anyone who uses the alternatives (RPI, and MMC). I have heard mixed reviews with longevity/corrosion protection wrt Redline Water Wetter. But again, they could be keeping the stuff in there year round. Not saying it's not good, but even my dealer is opposed to it. So a education on the subject would be appreciated

Any chemical engineers on the forum?

[The GECCO]

Their website says it's approved for asphalt racing, that and a token will get you on the subway. WERA doesn't allow it and MotoAmerica doesn't allow it. HPR allows alternatives that are widely used and accepted - MMC was used by last years AMA Daytona Sportbike Class Champion, whose team is based here in Colorado. I've used water and Redline for years and never had a problem.

Are you putting as much effort into getting the dealer to explain why the other products void your warranty? FWIW, this is likely bad info. The Consumer Protection Act prevents vehicle manufacturers from denying warranty claims based on the consumer not using a certain brand of oil, they can only dictate the viscosity. I can't imagine they are able to say certain brands of coolant aren't allowed, either. I imagine the Maxima is the only product the dealer sells....the question is - do they sell only Maxima because anything else will void the warranty....or do they say anything else will void the warranty because they only sell Maxima?

[Airbag79]

Their website says it's approved for asphalt racing, that and a token will get you on the subway. WERA doesn't allow it and MotoAmerica doesn't allow it. HPR allows alternatives that are widely used and accepted - MMC was used by last years AMA Daytona Sportbike Class Champion, whose team is based here in Colorado. I've used water and Redline for years and never had a problem.

Are you putting as much effort into getting the dealer to explain why the other products void your warranty? FWIW, this is likely bad info. The Consumer Protection Act prevents vehicle manufacturers from denying warranty claims based on the consumer not using a certain brand of oil, they can only dictate the viscosity. I can't imagine they are able to say certain brands of coolant aren't allowed, either. I imagine the Maxima is the only product the dealer sells....the question is - do they sell only Maxima because anything else will void the warranty....or do they say anything else will void the warranty because they only sell Maxima?


Valid point. I have been doing more digging, and it appears several dealers (another one here) allow Redline. So it probably is a case of bad marketing/not so honest dealer. Now that I know it approved by a local dealer, I won't having any problem with warranty and or servicing it.

[blaircsf]

Their website says it's approved for asphalt racing, that and a token will get you on the subway. WERA doesn't allow it and MotoAmerica doesn't allow it. HPR allows alternatives that are widely used and accepted - MMC was used by last years AMA Daytona Sportbike Class Champion, whose team is based here in Colorado. I've used water and Redline for years and never had a problem.

...


Like I said before, I just use a bit of water wetter (can't hurt right), just idle curiosity at this point. Am I missing something about their glycol free product? WERA, MotoAmerica, MRA, etc all say non glycol based ie water wetter or similar. To me the Cool-aide (glycol free) appears to be similar to water wetter? I'm just curious if there is some other detail I'm missing. I'm also not sure where Airbag is seeing it uses a "glycol blend"? Their coolant does, but the Cool-aide product specifically states "Glycol, Nitrate, Amine, Borax Free!".

[Airbag79]

Like I said before, I just use a bit of water wetter (can't hurt right), just idle curiosity at this point. Am I missing something about their glycol free product? WERA, MotoAmerica, MRA, etc all say non glycol based ie water wetter or similar. To me the Cool-aide (glycol free) appears to be similar to water wetter? I'm just curious if there is some other detail I'm missing. I'm also not sure where Airbag is seeing it uses a "glycol blend"? Their coolant does, but the Cool-aide product specifically states "Glycol, Nitrate, Amine, Borax Free!".

I think I was receiving misinformation. You're right, it's glycol free. No glycol. Which I thought was the sole constraint that had to be met.

[The GECCO]

Like I said before, I just use a bit of water wetter (can't hurt right), just idle curiosity at this point. Am I missing something about their glycol free product? WERA, MotoAmerica, MRA, etc all say non glycol based ie water wetter or similar.

The glycol isn't the ONLY factor, just the most egregious. We just feel that since compatible products are available for use, there's little incentive for us to act as product testers/investigators. I'm not inclined to say "yeah, it seems the same, go for it" without testing it. I'm also not inclined to spend time and money testing products just to make another brand available when viable options are already allowed.

Hope that helps.

Glenn

[TRK]

Like I said before, I just use a bit of water wetter (can't hurt right), just idle curiosity at this point. Am I missing something about their glycol free product? WERA, MotoAmerica, MRA, etc all say non glycol based ie water wetter or similar. To me the Cool-aide (glycol free) appears to be similar to water wetter? I'm just curious if there is some other detail I'm missing. I'm also not sure where Airbag is seeing it uses a "glycol blend"? Their coolant does, but the Cool-aide product specifically states "Glycol, Nitrate, Amine, Borax Free!".


From the MRA rulebook: I. Coolant: only water, Red Line Water Wetter, Royal Purple Ice (NOT Engine Ice or Evans coolant), or Silkolene Pro CCA coolant additives are allowed in liquid cooled motorcycles. Glycol based substances are prohibited. For the purpose of this rulebook, motorcycles which use engine oil as a primary cooling fluid are considered to be air-cooled.

[blaircsf]

Oops, wrong on MRA, I thought I remembered there was a similar clause (probably should of re-read before posting). There is one for WERA etc though. Thanks Glenn, that's answer enough. Like I said just idle curiosity at this point, and wondering if there was something else I was missing.

[The GECCO]

FWIW, the only coolant MotoAmerica allows is water. The ONLY additive allowed is ethyl alcohol to aid in corrosion protection but I doubt anyone will use it because it's expansion properties are too different from water.

I suspect that their logic is that not allowing exotic coolants will help keep the engine building and fuel/timing mapping in check by making it harder to control the temps on a monster motor.

[Airbag79]

FWIW, the only coolant MotoAmerica allows is water. The ONLY additive allowed is ethyl alcohol to aid in corrosion protection but I doubt anyone will use it because it's expansion properties are too different from water.

I suspect that their logic is that not allowing exotic coolants will help keep the engine building and fuel/timing mapping in check by making it harder to control the temps on a monster motor.

Water has the best thermal conductivity of any liquid (~0.6 W/m K), only Mercury has a higher Thermal Conductivity (~7 W/m K). The only reason they don't allow anything but water is safety and cleanup.

Ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, is strictly for decreasing the freezing point of water. But it will also decrease the thermal conductivity of water.

[The GECCO]

Water has the best thermal conductivity of any liquid (~0.6 W/m K), only Mercury has a higher Thermal Conductivity (~7 W/m K). The only reason they don't allow anything but water is safety and cleanup.

Ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, is strictly for decreasing the freezing point of water. But it will also decrease the thermal conductivity of water.

The additives like Water Wetter, etc are not designed to increase thermal conductivity. They lower the surface tension of the water to improve the contact between the water and the surface that it is either absorbing heat from or dispersing heat to.