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Lurch
April 4th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Well after Saturday it seems people want me to voice their opinion. So I figured I would take a little poll and find out what everyone thinks. You can vote and leave a comment or just vote and be anonymous.

First my comments. Everyone knows how I felt before and my opinion has not changed with the exception that the track is rideable but in no way should we race there without most of the track being resurfaced.

Lurch

Brian38
April 4th, 2005, 08:43 PM
I think the track is a neat track, unfortunately there are issues.

For me there were not too many problems practicing but I can see where the poor condition of the track surface would quickly manifest itself at higher speeds with a full grid on the move.

I would not have a problem racing there if even some repairs were made. An effort mind you, I don't believe we could expect a full repave.

If I had to pick 3 corners to start (hopefully a small but do-able number) I would look at the exit of turn 4. It is a highside waiting to happen. Get offline and it could bite hard. Entrance to turn 5. Pothole on the inside and the outside edge. Should be able to be patched relatively easily. Exit of turn 9. Just too many holes and variables on a turn that points you to a wall at its exit.

There are a number of areas that could be addressed but I really would not like to race there without some effort at improving track safety and the surface.

Please realize that this is my opinion and everyone is welcome to theirs as well. You don't have to like it. But if we don't speak up one way or the other how will our board know what we do or do not want.

I guess I would like to see a clause in the contract so that when we get there if effort has not been made to improve safety we don't pay.

Just one persons opinion :-)

Brian

dave.gallant
April 4th, 2005, 09:03 PM
...But if we don't speak up one way or the other how will our board know what we do or do not want...

Amen!

Keep the opinions coming, even if it is that "[you] don't care either which way".

-dave

Lel399
April 4th, 2005, 10:31 PM
I dont know, I am very inbetween on this topic. I was feeling ok riding the track the other day, AS LONG as you stay in one line and with very very few places safe or non bumpy enough to pass on. Ill race there regardles because we are racing, but I do have some serious worries about a 30+ person grid at this track, hell even a 20-25+ grid.

Racing616
April 4th, 2005, 11:10 PM
After riding on the track this last weekend I do have to say that this track is obviously dangerous BUT I did enjoy practicing there. A repaving would help TREMENDOUSLY. But it seems that it would be pretty expensive so i think the idea of doing just a few corners to make it safer initially is a good idea. Also, PLEASE move some of the barriers (armco/tires) That is really some scary stuff. I agree with Jason, anything over 25 riders will get kinda crazy. any of the ROR races will definitely be very interesting. :twisted:

kimisracer
April 5th, 2005, 07:47 AM
I havent had the chance to ride CDR yet and wont be able to until the race weekend. Based upon the information provided to me by others, I doubt that I will be racing. It worries me that getting off-line means dealing with bad pavement and pot holes. After all, this is racing and that means passing (which usually happens offline). The last thing I want to see, let alone be involved in is an wreck that was pavement induced.

Once again, I will go that weekend, ride my practices and then decide. Racing is racing, but I do this for shits and giggles and I dont need any more surgeries, etc.
________
SRD-1 (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Subaru_SRD-1)

Dean
April 5th, 2005, 08:02 AM
Yes, ALL tracks are dangerous. However, this is the first track I've riden where the bike in front of me is throwing chunks of pavement back at me.

With the extra use CDR is getting and the way the pavement was peeling up with the few bikes Saturday, we probably don't have anything to worry about. It could be down to the dirt by the time of our race and be Motard only. If there is pavement left, I'll be racing. :) I voted for the improvements, though.

Spiderman
April 5th, 2005, 10:10 AM
I think it's awesome!!! :^o

Sorry, I couldn't find an emoticon of an ambulance carrying my sorry-ass away. :lol:

But seriously, with some repaving, and maybe some moving of barriers, I think it could be a lot safer.

T Baggins
April 5th, 2005, 10:17 AM
My vote is somewhat skewed, because I will race there as is - but I also share the concerns of many of you as to the condition, etc... I plan to back it down a bit, in the effort to maintain my own safety.

As bad as it is now, it has been worse in the past. Any oldtimers out there will remember the Armco that began rather abruptly in the middle of the track in turn 2. You knew you were on the line for turn 3 if your left leg rubbed the Armco before you turned in. Also, there didn't used to be the extra 15' of track outside turn 3, so if you carried any speed at all you were out in the weeds. There have always been potholes, dips and all that. The place is built on a wetland. Are they really bad again now - yeah.

FWIW, in addition to the rather bumpy surface, there is a TON of great dirt area between turn 5 and 7 (North of the run-off road) which will make for awesome Supermoto racing.

The other issue, of course, is the space. We'll fill the upper and lower pits completely, even with a soft turnout. Last time we were there, our signups were down over 25%. Hopefully that will remain true for this year, 'cause frankly I don't think we'll all fit.

Everyone needs to do their best to bunk up with a buddy, and leave the gawdawful 48' trailers at home. This will be tight, tight, tight!

As long as CDR keeps trying, we should keep trying. It "could" be a great racetrack again someday - if we can help that happen, we should. If they choose not to work with us, then we should bail.

Anyone thought about the CMC/CAMA group buying CDR? Then we could ensure that the improvements get made - and it would be a helluva lot cheaper (and easier) than building the new track... especially since nobody seems to want us as neighbors.

Tbag #21

Lel399
April 5th, 2005, 12:53 PM
If the CMC bought the place though wouldnt we have the same type of problems they currently do? (ie the protected wetlands in the middle of the track?)

T Baggins
April 5th, 2005, 01:08 PM
Yeah, the wetland would be there forever, but at least they could patch the surface and re-work the pits/grandstands to the point that they are usable. Ours is the only club that cares about spectators - the car guys would just assume there not be any 'cause they get in the way.

Tbag

**MV#33**
April 5th, 2005, 01:42 PM
I think the track is too damn unsafe.. plain and simple. Also think the board should address this and let the members know what our approach is if we get to the track in June and nothings been done. Also I dont think patching a few small areas do anything but make it even more unsafe. Pavement and removal of unsafe barriers should be the minimum. ](*,) Will I race there? Not at race pace... but to me it seems like such a waste to spend a whole weekend (entry fee, gas, tires, etc..) tooling around because the track is unsafe. My opinion is make the changes or lose the MRA's business. But hey who am I?.. Just another member :-({|= :) .


Mike Vigil
mikev@benefitsblvd.com
303.888.6306

TC124
April 5th, 2005, 02:11 PM
I have to agree with mikey here. I love the track layout its self. However the wall after the dragandslide really commands my attention. No matter what others may say...I do not like running into concrete walls... no matter how soft they aren't. New asphalt, remove the cross over, remove that wall, some work on the drainage around the swamp, then maybe....
TC

=
I think the track is too damn unsafe.. plain and simple. Also think the board should address this and let the members know what our approach is if we get to the track in June and nothings been done. Also I dont think patching a few small areas do anything but make it even more unsafe. Pavement and removal of unsafe barriers should be the minimum. ](*,) Will I race there? Not at race pace... but to me it seems like such a waste to spend a whole weekend (entry fee, gas, tires, etc..) tooling around becuase the track is unsafe. My opinion is make the changes or lose the MRA's business. But hey who am I?.. Just another member :-({|= .


Mike Vigil
mikev@benefitsblvd.com
303.888.6306

jplracing
April 5th, 2005, 04:40 PM
Here is my .02

The major problems with the CDR are the surface and barriers. Because of this I don't believe that the MRA should race at CDR, unless improvements are made. I will also say that the track has potential to be a very fun place to ride and race.

I not trying to say the place has to be perfect, however in its current state I don't believe we can have 30+ rider grids without killing someone in the process. Therefore, I will not be racing there (either will Phillip) unless some of the needed changes are made.

With that being said, I don't feel that we should put the entire burden on CDR and sit back to complain when it doesn't get done. The only thing that gets hurt is our future seasons. Since everyone seems to agree that it is not a safe place to race maybe the answer is to offer up sweat equity from the club to help get this problem handled...

Joe

rforsythe
April 5th, 2005, 05:14 PM
With that being said, I don't feel that we should put the entire burden on CDR and sit back to complain when it doesn't get done. The only thing that gets hurt is our future seasons. Since everyone seems to agree that it is not a safe place to race maybe the answer is to offer up sweat equity from the club to help get this problem handled...

Joe

Unfortunately, sweat equity won't finance the cost of asphalt and concrete removal.

jplracing
April 5th, 2005, 07:09 PM
Ralph,

Sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest that the MRA cover all costs. I only ment to suggest that it would be more positive to work to a solution. The sweat equity was only a stab at offering such a solution.

Joe

NineTwoFour
April 5th, 2005, 07:34 PM
I seem to recall a discussion along the "sweat equity" lines sometime last fall... and nothing appears to have come from that. I doubt anything would "sweeten the pot" at this point... the owners have known about our issues for a long time now, and very little has been done to resolve them.

I can't make a decision yet about racing CDR. In it's current state, I think we are just asking for a tragedy running a full grid there at race pace. I'm going to have to see what happens with the repairs, and ride it prior to that round... then make my decision.

If the repairs aren't done, I won't ride there. If ANYTHING happens to cause you to take a different line you run into some very dangerous surfaces... and without the luxury of a lot of run off, you are likely to get seriously injured.

Just not worth it for us Hobby racers who are out there just to have a good time.

twistedrider
April 6th, 2005, 04:45 PM
Will I race there? Not at race pace... but to me it seems like such a waste to spend a whole weekend (entry fee, gas, tires, etc..) tooling around because the track is unsafe.

I agree, it does seem like a waste if you're only able to push it to 90% because of safety issues. I've had this same issue with Second Creek in the past. Although, at Second Creek, my desire to race motorcycles has always won over my issues with safety at a couple of the corners there. I don't think that I can say the same thing for CDR.

ebazyl
April 7th, 2005, 11:27 AM
First I would like to thank Dave G, for bringing these issues up and getting people to speak out about club issues.

Second, CDR is a dump and everyone knows it. To all the tracks (in AL, CO, CA, NM, NV) I have been it is by far the worst. That said a lot of track have issues: La Juanta blows out for seals and SCR has walls too.

But I think Alex has a great point, most people will race there no matter how bad of a idea it is. Currently my plans are to race there if I am in the points. :-$ If not I got a YZ 426 and Rebellion motorsports can get motord slicks preaty cheap.

dave.gallant
April 7th, 2005, 01:20 PM
The above illustrates one of my larger concerns. The track in current form does not promote multiple lines, and if you get off the "line" (if you can call it that), things get hairy pretty quick. It is one thing to say we are going to run around at 80% and have a good time - it is an entirely different thing to put 35+ middleweight bikes out on the grid together and drop a green flag.

Sometimes the hardest thing to learn is restraint, and I am as guilty as this as anyone. Come on, admit it - we are racers. We don't always make the best decisions. A bad decision at any track can hurt us - I am just concerned that the penalty for the same bad decision is higher at this track than at other tracks we currently race.

The flip side of this coin is that without funds, Mt View probably will never improve its facilty. This is a shit business argument ("give me the money, THEN I will provide you with a decent product sometime in the future"), but with 2nd Creek going away next year, racing this track in the future is probably a reality. The question then becomes: Do we invest now as a gamble that Mt View improves the facility?

Personally, I have my own opinion on the matter, and while I would love to share it with everyone, I first suggest each and every MRA racer think long and hard about why they will or won't race there, and the potential impact on the club or themselves.

-dave

The GECCO
April 7th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Dave puts it very well...the idea that we have to spend money there first, then get the track fixed...well, it sucks. I agree. But that's the reality of the situation. But this isn't the first time it has happened, the clubs paid "paving surcharges" for 2 years at SCR before the track was actually repaved (with additional outside loans from wealthy members) and it needed attention before the surcharges even started.

Am I taking the club to CDR because I think it's a great facility? No, I am aware of every one of its many shortcomings. I am taking us to CDR because it once was a great facility and it could be again in the future. This one event is a show of good faith, to show the owners they will have a future revenue stream and to encourage them to spend the funds necessary to bring the facility back to where it needs to be. Otherwise (I am guessing here) they will close the track and sit on the land while it appreciates.

We have to look farther into the future than just this one event. When SCR closes at the end of this season we (the motorsports community) will loose 34 weekends of track availability that has always been used to capacity. In 2004 and 2005, PPIR and Pueblo both were/are booked to capacity and LaJunta only has a few weekends open. It is VERY doubtful that the new track will be ready to race on in 2006 and there is always the possibility that it will take several years to finish (I

rforsythe
April 7th, 2005, 05:10 PM
FWIW, we're all aware of CDR's current shortcomings. These discussions, and the free tracktime granted to the membership, have been a healthy thing. However I also support the direction Glenn is taking us. I was skeptical at first, but we (the board) have discussed it quite a bit, and obviously quite a few members have expressed their views. Glenn and the rest of us have to look past "right now" and think one or two or five years down the road, and ultimately make the best educated call that we can.

Basically I think it's a tough decision- do we forego the track now and probably guarantee we'll be screwed out of a local track next season (and possibly subsequent years), or go there knowing the risk and improve our position at having another place to go? I think for the MRA as a whole, we need to book it and make the effort, because there is a good chance of it helping us out. I think the riders need to decide for themselves if that is a weekend they want to race, and if they do, how hard it's really worth pushing. I'm rather torn on the issue because as Track Marshal, my prime directive in MRA-dom is to keep you, the riders, as safe as I possibly can. However as a member of the board of directors I also need to consider the organization's long term goals.

I believe we're all adults here (well, most of us - the ones who aren't at least have parents who race). We can decide for ourselves if the conditions warrant "going for it". It doesn't matter whether you're in a points race or not, nobody is forcing you to ride - so if you don't think the track will support the kind of riding you intend to put forth, that is your own call. Is calming it down a bit worth the cost of tires and gas? That is a purely subjective decision. Championships are not necessarily won by placing first every time. And at the end of the day, we'd all like to go home tired but safe.

Would I ride at 100% on CDR, in it's current state? No. Would I still ride there? Yes. Would I (and did I) vote to bring the club there this year, knowing that riders would need to think a bit more before they acted, in the strict interest of a long-term viable track for the MRA? Yes. Believe that it was not a decision I or any board member took lightly, or unanimously agreed on. But most of us felt this was the best thing to do.

Like Glenn said, hindsight will be 20/20. I hope we look back and say "we took a risk and did it right", and I think we'll be able to.

Lurch
April 7th, 2005, 05:57 PM
I don't want to start another arguement like before but I have to add a few thoughts here.

1. Yes SCR is going away and we will need another track. But CDR is owned by Larry Miller who by the looks of things could write each and everyone of us a check to pay for our seasons. I'm a llittle puzzled why he hasn't made improvements to the track. It couldn't be that he is building a 4+ mile track 30 miles from his house could it?

2. So where do we put all the 34 race weekends that run at SCR. Well in 2004 La Junta only had 5 or 6 dates. If they have more this year then is everyone adding more dates to there schedule?

3. I agree with Dave G. that caution at CDR is a must but light the green light and I will guarantee that 25 out of the 35 gridded will forget that and race.

Here is my problem. So you back it down to 80%. Well if you are in the front of the grid normally this will now put you midpack. So all of a sudden a midpacker looks up and sees a front runner and things holy crap I'm about ready to pass a top 5 rider. So they make a not so safe pass and the top 5 rider gets taken out. So now you can throw out the ride at 80% BS...

4. Right now the poll shows a 2-1 margin of people who will not race there without improvements. So if only 40-50 riders show up will the MRA lose money by going to CDR?

5. If we go there just to show good faith I hope someone doesn't end up sacrificing there health just so the MRA has another track to race at.

One more thought about CDR. I think we have shown pretty good faith to them already. We have had schools at that track for the last 2-3 years maybe longer and they haven't done anything except paint and mow.

Lurch

Dean
April 7th, 2005, 06:07 PM
When SCR closes at the end of this season we (the motorsports community) will loose 34 weekends of track availability that has always been used to capacity.

Isn't that kind of the point? CDR knows that SCR is going to close FOR SURE at the end of this year. That fact alone, in my eyes, guarantees CDR the business. Why don't they step up NOW? It appears to me that CDR has the business just by the fact that SCR is closing and a TON of people need a place to race. Just another opinion and hindsight will definitely tell the story...

Brian38
April 7th, 2005, 08:53 PM
Personally, my concerns remain the same.

A) The track is not safe enough for racing.

B) No effort is being made to repair the issues.

C) The cost for lack of spectators and insurance req.

D) No pit space.

I would just like to see some effort, no wait, any effort at repairing the track surface or addressing barriers.

I still believe that a "performance" clause in the contract would at least make it look like they are trying to take care of our concerns. That way if they don't even try at least we can walk at no cost to the club except maybe a lost date. If we lose the track because they do not want to improve it, then so be it! It will only get worse and will not magically improve over the next year. :cry:

I can deal with the spectator issue and even overcrowded pits but cannot for the life of me deal with an apparent lack of concern over the safety of the clubs members.

One final note is that after speaking to many of the older members I understand that CDR was the MRA's "Home Track" in years past. The main reason that changed was that 2nd Creek repaved the track and made it a better product. Why can't the tables be turned and CDR make improvements to be a better product for the clubs it serves? ( I know back to the build it they will come mantra :) )

Feel free to flame away!

Brian

The GECCO
April 8th, 2005, 06:56 PM
2. So where do we put all the 34 race weekends that run at SCR. Well in 2004 La Junta only had 5 or 6 dates. If they have more this year then is everyone adding more dates to there schedule?


La Junta had more than that in 2004, and they are fairly booked this year. A couple of the clubs (including us) are going to SCR less this year and moving events to Pueblo and LaJunta because the tracks honor "grandfathered" dates, meaning if you have the date in 2005 you have dibs on it in 2006. Those that don't do this will be hurting for track time in 2006.



4. Right now the poll shows a 2-1 margin of people who will not race there without improvements. So if only 40-50 riders show up will the MRA lose money by going to CDR?


Dunno, I guess we'll see....my gut tells me that many of the people who voted that way feel the same as I do, which is something like "I will race there as is, but sure would PREFER some improvements first". I would have rather been able to vote for "I will race there ONCE as is, but not any more".

As I kinda said before, this is all a bit of a gamble, I'm hoping this event will give us a bit more leverage to demand repairs in the future. If they don't want to step up, then they certainly cannot continue to blame us for lack of support.



5. If we go there just to show good faith I hope someone doesn't end up sacrificing there health just so the MRA has another track to race at.


No one feels this more than I do, as I also said before - if something happens the people who oppose going there will lay it all on my shoulders whether it belongs there or not.

G

drmike6047@comcast.net
April 10th, 2005, 08:42 PM
Hey faster kidz, In my humble opinion, CDR is a disaster waiting to happen. I have been on the track 3 times since last year and the track continues to get worse and will eventually be the cause of a major trauma. I believe in safety first and formost and I know the decision makers in the MRA are, or should be, of the same mindset. CDR is very dangerous and should not be on our schedule until MAJOR repairs and or reconfigurations are in place. Do not expose the MRA to potential medical/legal complications due to running at a dangerous venue! Thanks--Doc Mike

Lel399
April 10th, 2005, 09:58 PM
as I have said, I am kinda afraid to run there, not because of what is around the sides because I can trust myself. At the school day we only had one person go down, so I believe that riders can make the safety decision, however as has been said when the green light goes, whats going to happen?

Is there any thought to trimming the grid sizes at all? Extra heats or something? I think that would make it a lot safer.

Jason

nileator
April 11th, 2005, 02:25 PM
I would love to see this track improve, heck it's so close to us up here in Ft. Collins. But I just don't see it happening no matter what we do.

I'll vote by not racing that weekend, but I'll be there to watch the carnage! :shock:

rforsythe
April 11th, 2005, 04:27 PM
FWIW guys, if you don't plan to race that weekend, come cornerwork! Novices can work off hours in a hurry, and get paid for the rest of the time. You'll also be making a difference in the overall safety of the facility, by ensuring that the turns remain free of debris for those that do plan to race in June. Heck, we even pay for your lunch (if you work the whole day)!

Lurch
April 12th, 2005, 06:44 AM
by ensuring that the turns remain free of debris for those that do plan to race in June.

I don't know this kind of says it all.

Lurch

dalemurphy48
April 18th, 2005, 08:46 AM
Up until this past weekend, I had not been on CDR in three years. If my memory serves me correct I don't think anything really has changed. The track has more patches and potholes then typical side streets around Denver. I personally don't feel it is safe to race there. I feel that there really isn't any significant run off in any of the turns, add to that the condition of the pavement and you have a unsafe environment. If there is a vote I would prefer to race nine races without CDR then ten races with it. In a perfect world I would love to replace the CDR date with another Pueblo date.

Dale, #48.

rforsythe
April 18th, 2005, 09:28 AM
Compared to the first school/practice we had, the track was MUCH cleaner this time around. Unsure if they got the hint and swept it, or if it was just from cars and snow, but I expected it to be a lot messier when we got there.

As for riding on the track itself... I didn't go out the last time due to bike issues and so didn't give an opinion on the track, however this weekend I decided to go play for the last session. My thoughts... Some corners have less than desirable runoff. Others aren't so bad. Without the gravel covering it like last time, there seemed to be at least some better passing areas one could take. I was actually having fun on it, and this was my first time on the track (so all I had to go on was everyone screaming about it).

I feel that between 5 and 6 still sucks, but once you know where the bumps are you can find something of a smooth(er) line between them, or just not gas it hard over the patches. I got some front end shake, but I also have a ratted out stock damper on the bike. A real damper turned up a bit would probably be fine. Some of it was also probably the rider.

I think that if you don't take the time to LEARN the track in practice, and just go for it in a race, you could have a bad day. However, this is true of pretty much any track. Once I started to learn the surface, I was able to get into it more (which is still slow, but I'm not exactly setting any lap records on tracks I do know either). I believe the wrecks we did see were people who didn't know the track as well, other than the one in the school who missed a shift and lowsided.

Some areas required tact, others could tolerate more of the usual stuff. In one of the sessions we must have had 35-40 bikes out there and while we cut it off at that point, people seemed capable of knowing what to do. I also know this was practice and not a race, but if racers can think a bit while they're out there they will be fine.

dave.gallant
April 18th, 2005, 10:10 AM
Go back out, run a few 1:05s or so, then get us all another report. I am curious if you will have the same opinion on the track...

Or, we could just wait until MW Endurance (you know, the mini-ROR that will be run on Saturday, but with Novices and LW bikes thrown in for good measure) to max out the grid and see just how much of a cluster it will be.

I can't wait! :roll:

( end of sarcasm )

As an MRA member, I support the MRA Board. As an MRA Board Member, I am doing my best to support the MRA riders. Part of my job as a Rider Rep is to repeat all the bad (and good) things the riders bring me, and believe me, the Board is tired of hearing the "bad" from me!

I see a trainwreck coming in the form of pit space, turning away spectators, and single-line "I don't dare get off the racing line or will throw the bike away" racing. While I can not speak for the whole MRA Board, I can say I do hear the concerns all riders have brought to me regarding the track and have done my best to voice them in your own words. There are many things that have to be considered here, and through the many hours of discussion I think we can come out with something that works for everyone...

hcr25
April 19th, 2005, 08:17 PM
Hey,i did 1:05's saturday :lol:

dave.gallant
April 19th, 2005, 08:24 PM
Exactly!!

:)

April 24th, 2005, 08:43 AM
I alway's have to add my .02 cents.. even though this is being dragged out..

I am a novice and my first time @ CDR was my school.. FYI: 3 yrs go karting, 7 years scca racing is my background..

1. The track blows.
2. Its really not unsafe.. its unfun. Racing is unsafe.
3. It blows.
4. The facility blows more than the track itself.
5. Nobody will get hurt because of the track.. if someone gets hurt its because he/she chose to do what caused the injury... we all have eyes and we can all see the risks.. take a look around and pick your war area..
6. In race mode, some tend to forget about the concrete, and surface conditions (well I do anyway, cuz I have major testosterone issues).. this is bad.
7. Everyone should go race there to support the track.. put a big note on your tank to go 90% and FOLLOW IT.

thats all I got.. :roll: