Round 7 points?

[spideyrdr]

So what's the plan for round 7? Single points like normal? Double points? Arm wrestle for bonus points? Challenge Tony to a drink-off for the outright Clubman Championship?

[rybo]

It's been advertised as a double point round since before the season started.

R7 is double points.

[spideyrdr]

Many thanks, Scott! I recall it being billed as something "equally controversial", so I wanted to make sure double points hadn't been tossed in favor of hot dog eating contests or something.

[Wayniac]

With NovU points as close as they are it will be an important final round.

[T Baggins]

Perhaps it should be "Bonus Points" instead of Double...

The idea is to get people to attend, NOT screw someone out of a championship.

If we gave everyone who attends, say, 20 bonus points... that would probably be better.

I will discuss with the Board.

[kitten]

I think the bonus point idea is much better. In my opinion doing a double points round could negatively affect a rider who is doing well the whole season and has one thing go wrong (even something as little as having too much oil in their bike, Tony) and loose out on a position. The bonus points would still accomplish the goal of keeping attendance up, while not having a dramatic impact on the championship (only 7 races) as long as they show up. Just my .02.

[hcr25]

I think it should be double points, that is how it has been advertised all year. Why change it now?

[Bueller999]

Double points for 7 and a throwaway out of the previous 6 :lol:

[mkdiehl]

10000000% agree with what kitten said (why is your name kitten????).

You have a mechanical every other race and lose half as many points as you would the last round....doesnt seem right to lose a championship position due to chance like that.

Please strongly consider bonus instead.

[sheispoison]

I agree with Applehans. It's been advertised as double points all year. People have had ample time to plan for that.

[mkdiehl]

....plan for what?
Should I have had a mechanical earlier in the year so that the gods would spare me when it affects me twice as much?

If you mean plan to attend so that you don't miss the opportunity to get MORE points then the bonus accomplishes this.

Remember what the goal of this was in the first place as Tony reiterated.

[cjmagnuss]

this will be interesting discussion as some racers might prefer bonus points if they are secure in their spot in the championship and those trying to move up a place or two would obviously be pushing for double points.

[rforsythe]

....plan for what?
Should I have had a mechanical earlier in the year so that the gods would spare me when it affects me twice as much?

Yes! That's why I blew the shit outta my tranny earlier in the season instead! :?

[rybo]

....plan for what?
Should I have had a mechanical earlier in the year so that the gods would spare me when it affects me twice as much?

Yes! That's why I blew the shit outta my tranny earlier in the season instead! :?

Well, there's your problem. That lubricant doesn't meet the API specification for your SV 650.



FWIW I'm in favor of keeping the round double points (and I have nothing to gain or lose by this) for the simple fact that we've advertised it this way since well before the season started. If there were objections to it, we could have raised them MUCH earlier in this process.

Just my .02

Scott

[Chadwick929]

Yes! That's why I blew the shit outta my tranny earlier in the season instead! :?
You did do with a tranny?... :shock:

[nobasin]

double points really won't make much of a difference if you think about it...the biggest point gap is from 1st to 2nd, 36 points vs. 32, a 4 point difference. with double points, this goes to 72 vs. 64, an 8 point difference. so the most double points can do is add 4 points to a person's advantage. for every other place, the difference is 3 points or less total.

i think this will actually make the racing in round 7 better because instead of people just sitting back trying not to crash just to finish and preserve their season points position, an extra point or 2 might make it necessary to actually race instead if you are in a 1-2 point battle for a season ending podium position.

don't change it, it hardly makes a difference in the end and if it does, it will just make the racing that much better for the last round.

[mkdiehl]

this large uphill is getting pretty tiring....but i will try again.....

yes the point difference is relatively small.

the issue is if there is a mechcanical/crash.....losing 72 points is significant right?

let's use a real example.

NOV U
Current gap first to second is 37 points.....assuming we only had PPIR left and it was a normal points paying round, I could DNF and still win championship by 1 point. Because there are 72 points up for grabs, that same DNF would lose the championship (and worst case drop me to 5th!!!).......should one round really have that much of an effect on the ENTIRE SEASON's worth of work?

And Rybo....I have been telling anyone that would listen since before the season started that double points was a bad idea. I just didn't know anyone was listening until Tony cracked the dam a little......

[d_mob]

If you had asked for racer opinions BEFORE the freaking season started, I would have said make all rounds equal. Heavying up on points for one round is not good IMO. Now, a double-header with twice the amount of races... Awesome.

However, we are at round 6 out of 7 now and things should stay the way they have been advertised all season. Double points.

And one more thing that needs to be concrete and not a wavering decision the day of the races @ PPIR. Are we or are we not racing in the rain there?

Cliff notes version... DO NOT alter scoring or what has been advertised all year. Thanks -

[nobasin]

this large uphill is getting pretty tiring....but i will try again.....

yes the point difference is relatively small.

the issue is if there is a mechcanical/crash.....losing 72 points is significant right?

let's use a real example.

NOV U
Current gap first to second is 37 points.....assuming we only had PPIR left and it was a normal points paying round, I could DNF and still win championship by 1 point. Because there are 72 points up for grabs, that same DNF would lose the championship (and worst case drop me to 5th!!!).......should one round really have that much of an effect on the ENTIRE SEASON's worth of work?

And Rybo....I have been telling anyone that would listen since before the season started that double points was a bad idea. I just didn't know anyone was listening until Tony cracked the dam a little......

matt, i get what you are saying but i think you could easily flip your argument around for a racer in 2nd overall, down by say 5 points. single points, no matter what, that guy can't get 1st overall. but double points suddenly if he gets 1st, he takes the championship by 3 points, so now there is a lot of incentive for that guy in 2nd to race hard, and the guy in 1st to race hard too. clearly one's point standing will dictate which side of this argument one falls on, just like chris mentioned earlier.

so all you need to do is not dnf in round 7. :-)

[mkdiehl]

^^^^^:) yes, and ride around delicately so i don't blow my lead.....that sounds like fun. :(

You are assuming the guy in first and second in the points have finished 1st and 2nd all year (nobody in the 4 classes I run has won every race). Therefore he has every ability to finish ahead of the guy in first and hope that someone gets between them.....winning the year end position based on EVERY race's outcome. I had a bit of an off track excursion last round in AM U....cost me some positions and some points....but not DOUBLE the points so that I lost several overall positions....just like it shouldn't have.

Last post on this...promise.

What planning has anyone done beause "it has been advertised all year"?

Give me one example of how knowing this has changed how anyone has gone about their season, other than someone targeting the last race INSTEAD of another one in hopes that they can take advantage of this rule to move up in the points (which, again, isn't the reason for the rule in first place).

Yes some people may NEED others to have an issue in the final round to catch them and would be a vote to "keep it as it has been advertised". Hell, I could conceivably get 1st in AM U with a couple of people having some bad luck even though I haven't beaten #1 and #2 all year.....still wouldn't be right.

[Desmodromico]

Mike, errr Matt....remember if you line up and start the race you also get double last place points...just sayin I think your trophy is safe...

Don't really agree with it but too late to change, the double points just means I'll slide out of top 10 in every class I run...not running PPIR again.

[kitten]

I believe that double points does have a big impact. If you look at some of the close classes, there are some racers who have had small issues (whether it be mechanical, meatballs, etc.) that had small impacts on their standing, now we are saying if you have those same issues at the last round it could potentially cause you to go from a first or second place to a 4th or 5th place. The idea of the double points round is to impact attendance not impact your standing any differently than any other round of the championship. The bonus point system achieves the goals of the club, while not impacting the results of the championship.

[lars]

while people are throwing out ideas, i petition that we only score the first 4 rounds of this season.
rounds 5 and later are just practice for next season:)
Just saw the doc today and he says i can now start bending my leg, but no weight.....

+1 on bonus points not double points

[polar x]

And one more thing that needs to be concrete and not a wavering decision the day of the races @ PPIR. Are we or are we not racing in the rain there?

Thanks -

We have always raced there in the rain... Regardless of over zealous comments. So plan on it.

[gsnyder828]

And one more thing that needs to be concrete and not a wavering decision the day of the races @ PPIR. Are we or are we not racing in the rain there?

Thanks -

We have always raced there in the rain... Regardless of over zealous comments. So plan on it.

I'll admit I've missed a few PPIR rounds since I started racing a dozen or so years ago... so I could have missed it, but I've never seen us race there in the rain - we've always said we would and we've always waited out a downpour when it happened by... but I can't recall an actual rain race there.

So I'm curious - have we actually run races in the rain there in recent history? If so - when?

[rybo]

Geoff,

We raced there in the rain in 2008 for sure. I recall some rain races before the "PPIR" break (2005-2008) too, but couldn't tell you which years.

S

[rybo]

while people are throwing out ideas, i petition that we only score the first 4 rounds of this season.
rounds 5 and later are just practice for next season:)
Just saw the doc today and he says i can now start bending my leg, but no weight.....

+1 on bonus points not double points

I rebuff your comments and suggest that we only score the last three rounds!

[gsnyder828]

Geoff,

We raced there in the rain in 2008 for sure. I recall some rain races before the "PPIR" break (2005-2008) too, but couldn't tell you which years.

S

I guess I got lucky & missed them all.

How was it?

[The GECCO]

Geoff,

We raced there in the rain in 2008 for sure. I recall some rain races before the "PPIR" break (2005-2008) too, but couldn't tell you which years.

S

I guess I got lucky & missed them all.

How was it?

Wet

[JimWilson29]

I remember that weekend in 2008. We ran most of the Saturday afternoon in the rain. I ran open endurance and it never stopped raining the entire time.

[jmaher]

I agree with Mike. It has been advertised as double all year.

Joe

[gsnyder828]

Wet

:lol: :lol: guess I deserved that :lol: :lol:

[Snowman]

I just have the one question... What are these points we are talking about?

[Fastt Racing]

....plan for what?
Should I have had a mechanical earlier in the year so that the gods would spare me when it affects me twice as much?

If you mean plan to attend so that you don't miss the opportunity to get MORE points then the bonus accomplishes this.

Remember what the goal of this was in the first place as Tony reiterated.

People have budgeted some good tires for the last round. Lapping days at PPIR have been attended to improve set up. People have saved their cheater engines for use during the last round. Hell your 2nd place competitor Dara took the last round off to scrape some scratch together for R7. If we changed it to bonus now it would not be the end of the world though. Double points occur in all forms of club racing to spice things up during and at the end of the season commonly. I have lost championships over being crashed into during double points races, but have also seen some great racing for the flag because of it as well. I think the bonus points would have been a little more FAIR for most, but this is racing not "&@/ ass bracket racing". Sam Roberts now has to race at a track he dosen't like if he wants to beat me (Sam & I have had some awesome battles for position behind you a few spots). Matt your bike will be just fine dude. Bring it by and I'll look it over before the R7 if you like...
Maybe we should do the bonus points thing next year for Round 8!

[T Baggins]

For the record, the original post and idea said "double points or something equally controversial"...

I agree that it may be too late to start being wishy-washy about it... but remember my job is to do what is best for our members and best for our club. I am concerned, now, that double points may not be the "best thing" for our members, and thusly our club.

The reason we talked about additional points of some sort was to ensure a good turnout given that we were ending the season at PPIR (which a handful of our members skip...). Perhaps it was unnecessary to do this, but we had real concerns about having a good season financially... and to date we've basically broken even on the season.

I've run CCS seasons where they had double or even triple points at rounds during the season... so it's not like it's never been done... but I don't recall it happening at the last round. Last round could be a game changer...

I just have concerns, that's all.

We'll discuss at length at the General meeting, and perhaps this is something that goes to a vote AT the meeting?

[d_mob]

For the record, the original post and idea said "double points or something equally controversial"...

No it didn't. This thread, in the club announcements section, clearly states 'DOUBLE POINTS'. Been that way since Wednesday September 21st, 2011 according to post date. :roll:

http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=13828

I've planned my season/program around this. Changing it now is effing lame IMO for a number of reasons. The biggest reason simply that it has been advertised as 'double' all year and here we are coming into round 6 out of 7 and NOW we're discussing a change???

http://s10.postimage.org/6ooe6zapl/double_points.jpg

[T Baggins]

Not the "season schedule post" which you've found - the ORIGINAL post and discussion about this said "or something equally controversial"...

I can't find it right now, but trust me that's what it said. I know, I wrote it.

Your stance on the matter is clear Mob, thank you for your input.

We will discuss this as a Board and again at the General meeting.

[Mforza]

Looking at this, I for sure hope that I can make it to the meeting :D

But if I can't, I vote for "bonus points" as it's seems to be more fair to the racers.
Just for the record, I for example can benefit from both "bonus" or "double" points in different classes. And I do not know yet if I will even race the last round even that I want to.
Just can't see how you could plan your season around the last race David.
If you were sitting in the 1st place now, you will go for "bonus points" instead for "double".
I thought that we are racing each race for the fact that we are "racers" and we are trying to get to the finish first, not calculating where to finish.

But maybe I see it wrong and there is some kind of plan, before you even start the season, how to win the championship by counting on the double points at the last race?

Well, whatever the you guys decide I'll go with it, as it will be the same for everyone :)

[sheispoison]

I still vote for keeping it double points like it has been advertised all year. I will be unable to attend the general meeting this month due to the reschedule of the Pikes Peak race (I'll be down there all week and in bed super early for the ultra early practice sessions). Lacy is going to go to the general meeting and will proxy my vote if need be.

[mkdiehl]

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:14 am** *Post subject: 2012 MRA Race Schedule
Asterix between rounds indicate the number of weekends "off" between rounds. I tried to get 2-3 between each round, only Rounds 1 & 2 have just ONE weekend off between...


2012 MRA Schedule FINAL

April 6th School Classroom Session (location TBA)
April 7th HPR School Track Session / Lapping Day (15th alternate for weather)
*
*
May 5/6 HPR Round #1
*
May 19/20 PPIR Round #2
*
*
June 9/10 HPR Round #3 (4 Hour Endurance / Pony Express)
*
*
June 30 / July 1 Pueblo Round #4
* (Pikes Peak Int’l Hill Climb July 7/8 )
*
*
July 28/29 HPR Round #5
*
*
*
August 25/26 HPR Round #6
*
*
September 15/16 PPIR Round #7 (DOUBLE POINTS or SOMETHING SIMILARLY CONTROVERSIAL!)
_________________
Tony Baker #21
Your Now Not-So-New President!

Sponsored by:
Short Bus Race Team, Vickery Motorsports, Madman Engineering Race Engines, Bridgestone, Dunlop, Michelin, Wines til Sold Out.com, Un!nk Printworks, Czech Strong Absinthe, Vanson Leathers, Silkolene, EBC Brakes, Imodium A-D

[d_mob]

Not the "season schedule post" which you've found - the ORIGINAL post and discussion about this said "or something equally controversial"...

I guess I looked in the at the post that said 'MRA 2012 Schedule FINAL' and took it as that... Final.

I didn't know I was supposed to check a seperate post, put up eight days later for additional details. http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=13871


Just can't see how you could plan your season around the last race David.
If you were sitting in the 1st place now, you will go for "bonus points" instead for "double".
I thought that we are racing each race for the fact that we are "racers" and we are trying to get to the finish first, not calculating where to finish.

But maybe I see it wrong and there is some kind of plan, before you even start the season, how to win the championship by counting on the double points at the last race?

Yes. Sinister plan in place based on 'FINAL' schedule that has been in place all year. Plan may work, plan may not work, but it is a plan.

Finally... Matt, thanks for pasting the 'other' thread that shows Tony's "or something equally controversial" comment. Again, posted eight days after original. I hadn't heard anything about changes until this post, which is simply too late to make changes.

As Tony said, my opinion has been stated, as have other's. I guess we'll have to battle it out in person over a slice @ The Walnut Room later this week.

PS... Is the general meeting still this Wednesday, August 8th? I double checked the club announcements thread here http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=14057, but just want to make sure I didn't need to look elsewhere for changes. :wink:

[nobasin]

"or something equally controversial"

triple points? :D

[NossLou]

How bout double points at HPR instead of PPIR :) That would be super sweet, but then would be pointless since no one would want to attend for the last round. And if we are doing double points at PPIR I think its only fair that we run the course backwards in the rain for double points!

Either way like Tony said this decision is made to better the club as a whole. To make sure we have one in five years... So whatever is the best idea for the CLUB im in for it! However I can't make it to vote Wed night because of work.... I personally dont care if we have quadrouple points rounds. Its simply to get guys out there for the last round instead of moping at home how its not worth it.

IMO maybe we do a double points round in the future where you have to earn them through a double header weekend... That would be cool! Its probably not possible due to time but damn a double header pony express weekend would be freaking sweet! We would need to add a Satfriday to the week for time though.

8)

[peteyt328]

Just my $.02 but I am for leaving it as double points now. Originally I don't think that was the right option, I think the real issue is with how points are rewarded but that's a whole other issue. Now that I, along with many others, have planned the second half of our seasons around this it would screw a lot of ppl over to change it now.

[oldtimer]

Double points as advertised!

Although double points is *scary*, I voted for it last year because it would be exciting. The thrill of victory, agony of defeat! :twisted:

[Throttleroller277]

While ranting and raving please keep in mind all scenarios that are effected here, and not just your specific situation.

For those that have only been racing the last few years, I just want to throw this out there for all to keep in the back of their minds, in case you didn’t know:

The breakdown in the points system is based on something like 10 race weekends (which in the past was the norm, maybe even 12+ I recall). Allowing someone to have a DNF and still be able to win the championship, not just to keep the current champ that won all of the races all season from losing it at the end.. If Rider X won the first round, and had a DNF at Round 2, but won the next 8 Rounds, Rider X could still win the championship. Or Rider X could win the first 7rnds, finish maybe 2nd and 3rd in the 8th and 9th rounds, and it could come down to the 10th round. Either way keeping it exciting till the end, with the possibility of several people being able to win the championship at the end, regardless of who has the most wins. (maybe another “old timer” can better explain why the points system was built the way it is, please feel free…)

If we used the current system with only 7 rounds, and Rider X wins round 1, DNF’s Rnd 2, but Wins the last 5 rounds = 216 points. Vs. Rider Z who finished 2nd in all rounds, and one first place because the other guy DNF’d = 228. (I know, I know……. “that’s racing!”….. but no battle at the end, compared to 10 race season). The current point structure was built in favor of one DNF, for a 10 rnd season!!

The only reason that I throw this out there, is that most of the debating is coming from riders that were not around when the points structure was built, or the last time we had 10 or more rounds.

Another factor is the database itself. I am not a computer guru, but I do know that you can’t just go changing the system without doing a bunch of “Coding”. Double points is easy, just make a duplicate round 8. Bonus points is easy, add X amount of points to each riders tally (maybe).

Don’t get me wrong. I do see your “point of views”. But keep the above stuff in mind if we are going to toss ideas out there for “Something similarly controversial”.

[Throttleroller277]

Is rider x that wins 6 races and 1 DNF a champion? Yes IMO
Is rider z that finishes 2nd in 6 races, and 1st in one race a champion? Yes IMO

You decide

[oldtimer]

Maybe we can discuss the points structure at this years Rules Committee Meeting.

When I started with the MRA we were on a WSBK style points system. 25pts for a win, pts paid to 15th (1 point). That system sucked for the big classes, like a 30 bike novice or endurance class. The finishers in 16th+ got no credit for where they finished and were gridded on a first come basis at the next round.

So we went to a 36 point system, paying points back to 30th (1point). This doesn't work as well for the small classes. If we accrued less points/round the spread would be closer and might encourage harder racing late in the season.

The AFM uses a system where there is a points/finishing position, but then they add on top the number of finishers in that race that weekend. So you get less points if you beat 4 guys than if you beat 40 guys. I like the idea of a sliding points system depending on how many racers show up for a specific class, but I don't know how hard it would be to create the points database. Could be difficult.

[rforsythe]

Interesting Jeff, I didn't know the history of the points system math either. That said, it is just coding. In theory it wouldn't be too hard to leave it as-is for a 10-round season, and apply an "adjustment factor" for lesser rounds that would even things back out for a shorter season. Of course any change would piss off someone (not the least of which Dave, who has to make said theoretical changes).

Thanks for explaining our roots though. Good stuff.

[T Baggins]

Round 7 will be Double Points as we had originally planned and advertised.

I basically second-guessed it and foolishly "thought out loud" in the forums before consulting with the Board of Directors. This should have been a Board decision, not a Tony decision and it was not my place to upset the apple cart. The original post in this thread was just asking for clarification, "I" was the one who started the melee... my bad.

There are pros and cons to both scenarios (Double vs. Bonus) but it does not seem like Double "automatically" puts anyone at a special disadvantage (unless they skip it altogether, but same for bonus points if they skip) - it just requires a different type of strategy depending on your current points position.

We advertised it as Double Points, it's on the schedule as Double Points, and even been published in RRW, etc... as Double Points.

No reason to change that now...

We'll be reviewing the points structure for 2013 anyway with the addition of a new database and scoring system... so it may be that we don't "need" to put in any little tricks or incentives to get people to show up.

[Fastt Racing]

See what happens when you hang out with Finneginer too much. You will learn how to stick your foot in your mouth with amazing efficiency, and accuracy. Hahahaha.