Racing at Pueblo

[KFinn]

Well I was talking with some family and other racers that didn't make it to PMP and we got on the topic of the quality of the new surface and some other opinions of those that did make it. I figured I would start a thread for others to add their .02 and share with others that did or didn't make it.

I always thought PMP layout was decent but never really like it a ton because of only being there 3 times in 2 years. I also hated the surface because of never having my suspension dialed in for it compared to the other tracks. As a new'ish racer these are the reasons it wasn't a 'great' track.

however now having the new surface, and having been there a 4th time, I can honestly say it is becoming one of my favorite places. There are still a few bumps in a place or two but so much of it is smooth and so fun. The more I memorize the layout mapped to my marker points the more I get faster. I hope that we can race there afford-ably more next year and hope others give it a good chance.

The only things left on my wish list are:
RV powerspots
Maybe some tall bleachers behind the maint area so you could see turn 2 through 7 better?
Some more markers on turn 1. Maybe add a 5 and a 4 in front of the 3,2,1.
and if I am gonna be nit picky, a pavilion area on the grass area that already houses the benches?

In summary, Thank you Pueblo for improving the track as much as you have.

[dave.gallant]

Pueblo has always been one of my favorite tracks, even before it was paved.

Turn 10 is now the least favorite turn of any track I have ever ridden in the United States.

Turn 9 needs to be fixed; the patch on the entrance caught a lot of people off guard.

[KFinn]

Turn 10 is now the least favorite turn of any track I have ever ridden in the United States.
Yes, I agree but didn't want the only comments of this thread to be about this turn. It did need mentioning though. Hopefully we can continue to hear others' thoughts outside of this.


Turn 9 needs to be fixed; the patch on the entrance caught a lot of people off guard.Is it sad I didn't notice what you are talking about here even after racing 10 races this weekend on it?

[dave.gallant]

I guess it depends on your line into there, but it seemed like the guys who have raced there a long time are the ones who had a problems navigating it. I personally lost the front twice because the worst part of the pothole was exactly where I like to turn in. Most were forced to charge the corner and enter much earlier than normal to avoid tucking the front.

I guess the flip side of that patch is that we found a football? :)

Other than that, Pueblo is still possibly my favorite layout. It flows great on a little bike.

[Throttleroller277]

I agree with everything said thus far, with the exception of more markers into T1, as I personaly didn't see a need for more of them.

I too, had to adjust my turn in point at T9, to avoid the crumbling pavement/patch.

It would have been nice if the would have done some prep benieth the asphalt to get rid of some of the bumps that were previously there, but having them there still keeps some of the ol' pueblo roots alive!! Pueblo wouldn't be Pueblo if it was perfect....

Now they just need to reopen the Majestic!! 8) (some people will remember)

[KFinn]

I agree with everything said thus far, with the exception of more markers into T1, as I personally didn't see a need for more of them. Some of us are still a little scerrred some times going into 1. Doesn't mean I would brake at 4 or 5 but at least then I can start pacing the gaps in my mind of when 3 is coming up.

I know I know... its a dumb mental thing, but still.

[Throttleroller277]

Just wait till you see Elvis... then Brake

[jmaher]

I really expected lots of tire wear. I learned to ride there and enjoy the layout. It seems more like a hp track with lots of point and shoot, but maybe I am doing it wrong. With the new paving I lost all the patches I used for braking, turns and lines, but wow was it smooth. T10 was a non-issue for me and I liked it. T9 was significantly better than it was and now it is simply another turn. Before it was my least favorite of all having went off track more there than all other corners/tracks combined. I like the new curbing on the inside of T9 rather than that big thing they had last year. I had some issues with T8....not sure why. I liked being able to go a little wide in T1 without all the bumps. I had some friends come down both days and they commented that spectating was very good and easy being able to walk from corner to corner and see almost the whole track. PA system is great, you can hear everything even if pitted in the boonies. I think they need shade (lots of it) and a beer garden ala PPIR for spectators and A/C for everyone. The WiFi was great and as fast as at home. I would like more markers in T1 and a cone on the inside of T1 as they do in T3 at HPR. Holy crap it was hot down there! PPIR is still my favorite.

Joe

[Wayniac]

Having never been on the road course at PMP, I had a blast. Didn't notice any issues with T9. T10 seemed fine. I would have liked to see less dirt on T4 and T6a/6b. I liked the flow, even though it felt like a very narrow track. Still not the biggest fan of having to cross track to enter and exit. I would race there 2-3 times a year.

[Fastt Racing]

It was my favorite, and is now definitely my favorite track. I hope we can race there a few times next year.
T10 is the dumbest planning I have ever seen in race track design or repair. It is now officially much more dangerous than before.....Why the hell is there 50 tons of gaurdrail and a light pole there? Someone needs slapped for that. It would have been easy/inexpensive to improve runoff & decrease speeds in T10. Sorry I can't hold my tongue on this.
I don't care about the slick drag strip lanes. I think they make it more exciting, and a challenge. They also helped create a couple different lines and strategies, which made for some fantastic racing battles for me.
They just need some carport or garage space down there, and that place will be epic! T8 had a couple minor bumps that were no big deal. T1 had some minor ripples on entry that were very reasonable. T7 is holding up good so far. T6a&b were very dirty, and I can't figure out why? T9 was not that bad, it just needs a little patch strip. Lenski, the superstreet guy, and 1 other didn't even come close to the bump/rough spot when they crashed or blew T9, so it only aided 1 Mobster get off that I know of.
Overall a thumbs up!

[T Baggins]

Now they just need to reopen the Majestic!! 8) (some people will remember)

Shame on you Brownie... it was "The Mystic" not the majestic... :shock:

[KFinn]

Thanks tony for your vaulable contribution to this thread. :p

[Throttleroller277]

Now they just need to reopen the Majestic!! 8) (some people will remember)

Shame on you Brownie... it was "The Mystic" not the majestic... :shock:

Shit, I think you might be right sir Tony.

[T Baggins]

Oh, and ditto on what everyone else has said.... It's a damn shame they couldn't have taken the dragstrip out of the roadcourse somehow. Even if it didn't have the armco and walls... we're still a TOTAL LOSS if it rains. Someday, maybe, they'll be able to circumnavigate the current T10. Till then, we do the best we can.

The rest of the track was butter. :D

[KFinn]

Just for my own curiosity, I added a poll to the thread. Please fill it out if you have a moment.

[DOUBLE A]

Banking is for CARS

[Ray-Ray]

Just for my own curiosity, I added a poll to the thread. Please fill it out if you have a moment.

YO Ginger... The ONLY reason we raced in Pueblo 1 time this year was because the track was not going to be ready for our first race there in May. We had to move that date to PPIR. Originally we had 2 races scheduled there.


I would much rather race in Pueblo vs PPIR any day!

[KFinn]

Thx, I remember. I was just curious of others thoughts just because the grids were again once very light and wondered why some didnt make it down for the new pavement.

[JimWilson29]

http://cdn.randomfunnypicture.com/pictures/424609b26b212bd6d3e28a4b9dbdfec2ff6.jpg

[Slo]

If we have 7 races next year, I would say 2 @ PMP, 2 @ PPIR, 2 @ HPR and 1 @ Hastings.....

[T Baggins]

If we have 7 races next year, I would say 2 @ PMP, 2 @ PPIR, 2 @ HPR and 1 @ Hastings.....

As part owners of HPR, we're actually obligated to 5 events there per year. The school / lapping day counts as one, then 4 races.

Just fyi...

[dave.gallant]

Wow -- I have not seen a positive vote for Hastings in quite some time.

Has anyone ridden there in the last few years?

[Slo]

I have not been there since my one time in 08'. I had heard rumors that the track conditions got worse. However through email, George mentioned the track is fine and that other motorcycle clubs have been there several times with no issues.

And....bacardi bus is still operating as normal :)

Would just be nice to get a variety of tracks since and while they are available. I have never been to Miller, but that would be an awesome one to throw in the mix although I don't think that would be able to fit in the MRA budget.

[oldtimer]

If we can get participation back up to support an 8 round series, we could have 4 races at HPR, 2 at PMP and 2 at PPIR. Win-win :D

[Yeeker]

If we can get participation back up to support an 8 round series, we could have 4 races at HPR, 2 at PMP and 2 at PPIR. Win-win :D

+1, with emphasis in the "if."
And using the HPR North course a couple times.

[HAMMER]

track was awesome ... I say two at pmp and ppir :D

[rforsythe]

I'm fine with 4 HPR rounds, 2 PMP, and 1 Pikes (though the armco at PMP T10 is as stupid as walls at PPIR IMO, we just haven't run anyone into it hard yet). I like Pikes, it's a fun course. I dislike the walls, though if people would stop trying to play chicken with them we'd have a better time there. :D



And using the HPR North course a couple times.

YES! That was fun as hell! It'd also possibly decrease cornerworker cost on those weekends since you don't need as many people to staff the track. I'd love to see at least one, maybe two North Course HPR events next year. Totally changed the dynamics of the race.

[Slo]

And using the HPR North course a couple times.

+1

[Wayniac]

I wouldn't mind a North and West HPR, 2 at PMP and 2 at PPIR.

[NossLou]

It will be interesting how the surface weathers in at PMP. I personally have a hard time at that track, however I loved it this last time. Def brought out my weaknesses I need to work on. Yes turn 10 really blows and wish the old race line was there, but oh well.

The crazy part about PMP now is how smooth it is. I actually had a hard time getting feedback from my tires it was so freaking smooth. I loved it. I will say I do not remember the little ripples coming out of 1, my front now pushes through this section and I do not remember them ever being there.

9 is my favorite turn on the entire track. Yeah the crap patch sure does not make it as enjoyable as before, but hopefully that scrubs in. Right as I hit that patch was when the front let go and never recovered. Never saw the pot hole though... I must ride a completely different line. 8's bumps on the brakes are more nerve racking now but I'm sure its something just to get used to.

My biggest concern is how well the track is actually going to gold up over the next two years. 7 was torn up after 4 car days. I wonder what it will look like at the end of the year? It feels as if the ripple on the exit of 1 are car induced as well... Sort of like 1 at HPR... I don't mind big bumps at all its the quick set of ripple that encourage the front to let go that scare me.

I personally can't stand PPIR as a track. I love their facilities but the wall is in my head and I for some reason can't push it out. I would be completely fine with 4 races at HPR and 4 at Pueblo... but thats just me.

And I will submit for another vote for Hastings! I love that track... Get over the freaking bumps

[Kingpin]

Additional feedback on PMP!

Sounds like most folks were pretty happy with the new surface at PMP this last race weekend.

T-10 is a pain in the but, but seems like Turn 9 caused most of the incidents. Not sure if the bump leading into turn 9 was the issue or the surface just changed grip a bit.

Additional risks with PMP:
RAIN: Not that it has been a big issue this year, but just as a reminder that we can't race in the rain at Pueblo due to the dragstrip... and slick stuff.

Yes we race in the rain at HPR, and yes we can race in the rain at PPIR.
But in the past we have said NO to rain racing at Pueblo.

If we do book race events there next year we just have to hope its dry.
Oh, and no we don't get our money back if we can't race on it....

A.

[dave.gallant]

I thought I remember seeing drawings for the dragstrip area of Pueblo where the roadcourse jogs out past the dragstrip wall, out and around the existing T10, then rejoins somewhere down the front straight so we could race in the rain there.

What ever happened to that?

[Ray-Ray]

I thought I remember seeing drawings for the dragstrip area of Pueblo where the roadcourse jogs out past the dragstrip wall, out and around the existing T10, then rejoins somewhere down the front straight so we could race in the rain there.

What ever happened to that?

No money for that... :(

[dave.gallant]

I thought I remember seeing drawings for the dragstrip area of Pueblo where the roadcourse jogs out past the dragstrip wall, out and around the existing T10, then rejoins somewhere down the front straight so we could race in the rain there.

What ever happened to that?

No money for that... :(

But they have $ for 15 diesel-powered tower lights every single Friday night and enough Armco to line Coors Field?

I might enjoy the track but I have serious reservations regarding its management.

[DOUBLE A]

I thought I remember seeing drawings for the dragstrip area of Pueblo where the roadcourse jogs out past the dragstrip wall, out and around the existing T10, then rejoins somewhere down the front straight so we could race in the rain there.

What ever happened to that?

No money for that... :(

If it came down to it, is the pit lane an option? lol

[Ray-Ray]

I thought I remember seeing drawings for the dragstrip area of Pueblo where the roadcourse jogs out past the dragstrip wall, out and around the existing T10, then rejoins somewhere down the front straight so we could race in the rain there.

What ever happened to that?

No money for that... :(

If it came down to it, is the pit lane an option? lol


No!!

[NossLou]

I agree on the statement of grip changing throughout turn 9 all weekend... The new pavement itself seemed much more grippy on Friday than on Sunday. May have jest been in my head but it seemed as if 9 got more slick throughout the weekend.

I will make a comment on the rain issue.. I understand why its hard to race in the rain at HPR.... but trying to defend that with the fact that PPIR is a rain track doesn't seem viable to me. Even this year after spending hundreds of bucks on rain specifically for PPIR the club announced at the track we wouldn't be racing in the rain. I only bought the tires in case it rained at PPIR but it was a little discouraging that after doing so and being told it was a rain track we completely flipped that around and said we wouldn't race in the rain there.

To be honest I'd rather race Pueblo wet than PPIR. I know I'm bitching about the flip flop decision at PPIR but I sure didn't want to race in the rain there. I love rain racing but I think PPIR would claim a lot of bikes and if not riders for the season if we rain race there...

Anyways I understand the rain racing argument but PPIR needs to be designated a rain or non rain race track and that decision shouldn't be reversed the day of the race...just a thought.

I hope it didn't come off as a complaint at all just something I noticed this year that somewhat confused me.

[T Baggins]

Actually the statement was that we would do everything in our power NOT to race in the rain at PPIR. If it rained and stayed raining, we would've ran it wet.

Thankfully we didn't have to. :D

[rybo]

I thought I remember seeing drawings for the dragstrip area of Pueblo where the roadcourse jogs out past the dragstrip wall, out and around the existing T10, then rejoins somewhere down the front straight so we could race in the rain there.

What ever happened to that?

No money for that... :(

If it came down to it, is the pit lane an option? lol

No - the tower at the outside just as you apex this turn would be an unprotect-able hazard.

[NossLou]

Actually the statement was that we would do everything in our power NOT to race in the rain at PPIR. If it rained and stayed raining, we would've ran it wet.

Thankfully we didn't have to. :D

Well no wonder why I was confused I didn't even hear it right.... :shock:

I still don't want to imagine rain racing at PPIR though :D

[Throttleroller277]

And I will submit for another vote for Hastings! I love that track... Get over the freaking bumps

The issue of the Bumps at Hastings is only part of the equation for not racing there. And, to my understanding (heard first hand from someone that has recently been on the track), is that the majority of the bumps have been ground down, and are now to a minimum, if not obsolete. Along with new curbing added in the corners.

The more significant issue with Hastings is that people cannot afford the travel out there, causing the MRA to take a HUGE loss. If people don't go to Pueblo (with new pavement), causing a loss, what will happen at Hastings!?

Don't get me wrong. I liked Hastings too, both the track layout, and the town. Not sure which takes presidence.... Had some damn good times partying out there!! 8)

=; Now lets not get off track with the Hastings thing. I held back from saying anything earlier in the thread when it was mentioned, but now it came up again, so there's my 2 cents on that.

[dave.gallant]

Note to divert, but CCS Great Plains region (TrackAddixx I thought?) was doing a weekend there at Hastings for a bit. Are there any other motorcycle race orgs currently racing Hastings so guys who want to run it can?

Another odd question: CAMA is the organization that runs and did all of the fundraising for HPR, correct? Who owns PMP and is/was CAMA involved with the track repave? (I am just curious. I honestly don't know how all of that works)

[JimWilson29]

Note to divert, but CCS Great Plains region (TrackAddixx I thought?) was doing a weekend there at Hastings for a bit. Are there any other motorcycle race orgs currently racing Hastings so guys who want to run it can?

Another odd question: CAMA is the organization that runs and did all of the fundraising for HPR, correct? Who owns PMP and is/was CAMA involved with the track repave? (I am just curious. I honestly don't know how all of that works)

CCS Great Plains series folded. I am on MPH's mailing list and the only motorcycle events they have are Ducati of Omaha's track days, which most get canceled due to low registration.

PMP is owned by the city of Pueblo. CAMA had no involvement with the repave. The CMC (Colorado Motorsports Council) , which the MRA is a member, did provide $$$ for funding the repave and also tried to provide direction.

[sheispoison]

As much as I want to like Pueblo, Pueblo doesn't like me.

[polar x]

Actually the statement was that we would do everything in our power NOT to race in the rain at PPIR. If it rained and stayed raining, we would've ran it wet.

Thankfully we didn't have to. :D

Well no wonder why I was confused I didn't even hear it right.... :shock:

I still don't want to imagine rain racing at PPIR though :D

Racing in the rain there is no worse or harder than HPR. I love it and personally feel that PPIR is fun in the rain.
I would race in the rain at PMP using the pit road if they allowed it. And I do think you could square that corner off and make it a standing yellow to keep riders in line. Beats canceling the races.

[rforsythe]

Racing in the rain there is no worse or harder than HPR. I love it and personally feel that PPIR is fun in the rain.
I would race in the rain at PMP using the pit road if they allowed it. And I do think you could square that corner off and make it a standing yellow to keep riders in line. Beats canceling the races.

Are you talking about squaring off the pit lane turn, or T10? If the latter, it would be irrelevant, you can highside going in a straight line on that traction crap if it's wet.

I think we tried the pit lane thing once IIRC, it was interesting...

[graphite675]

If we have 7 races next year, I would say 2 @ PMP, 2 @ PPIR, 2 @ HPR and 1 @ Hastings.....

That is kind of what I would like to see although never been to Hastings so my vote would be..

2 PMP, 2 PPIR, and 3 at HPR.

Just adds a little more variety. HPR is awesome but it's nice to switch it up a little instead of riding the same track all the time. Also PMP and PPIR are Much more accessible to spectators. HPR is so isolated no one wants to come out to watch.

.

[rforsythe]

If we have 7 races next year, I would say 2 @ PMP, 2 @ PPIR, 2 @ HPR and 1 @ Hastings.....

That is kind of what I would like to see although never been to Hastings so my vote would be..

2 PMP, 2 PPIR, and 3 at HPR.


In case y'all missed t-bag's post, we are committed to five HPR events a year. School is one, which leaves four race weekends we must do there. In a 7 race series, well, math is what it is. :)

[T Baggins]

If we have 7 races next year, I would say 2 @ PMP, 2 @ PPIR, 2 @ HPR and 1 @ Hastings.....

That is kind of what I would like to see although never been to Hastings so my vote would be..

2 PMP, 2 PPIR, and 3 at HPR.


In case y'all missed t-bag's post, we are committed to five HPR events a year. School is one, which leaves four race weekends we must do there. In a 7 race series, well, math is what it is. :)

And based on feedback from riders, we'll probably split the 4 races at HPR so that two are "full course" and two are "north course". This is essentially like having two completely different tracks - but in one place. Second Creek was that way - we ran it backwards on alternating events.

Last time we went to Hastings, the MRA LOST $18,000 on the event. Unless we are flush with money, or unless we get a "can't lose money" guarantee from some unknown and generous entity that doesn't exist... you can bet we won't be at Hastings again any time soon.

If we could get decent RACER turnout at our events 00--00 , we could go back to an 8 race season (4, 2, 2), but again I think we're a ways off from that. We're averaging just about half of our total racing members per race... Would'ja all get it together and show up at the same time please so we can have a decent weekend for once...?!? :lol:

The economy is still recovering, and some of our members are still just now hitting bottom... give it another year and we'll all be living large again. You heard it here FIRST!

[polar x]

Racing in the rain there is no worse or harder than HPR. I love it and personally feel that PPIR is fun in the rain.
I would race in the rain at PMP using the pit road if they allowed it. And I do think you could square that corner off and make it a standing yellow to keep riders in line. Beats canceling the races.

Are you talking about squaring off the pit lane turn, or T10? If the latter, it would be irrelevant, you can highside going in a straight line on that traction crap if it's wet.

I think we tried the pit lane thing once IIRC, it was interesting...

I am talking about Pit lane...if we tried before it may have been before my time. I still think it could be done. Neck it down with cones from T9 to a super slow, damn near single file nasty tight right hander on the far left of the track, so that you are straight up and down entering pit lane. ALWAYS under a standing yellow, NO PASSING after T9 just prior to entering the T10Pit turn and then once in front of the grand stands you could pass and then game on once your on the big part of the track again. Beats donating to PMP or the club if we cancel for weather, and just like PPIR and HPR, you have a choice to race or not race. But atleast its a choice.....something we dont have right now at PMP. This club seems (to me) adverse to racing in the rain...no matter where we are. I love the rain races. Would be nice to have another track to run wet...even if it means being throttled back for 2 turns.

Just a thought.. :wink:

[rforsythe]

I am talking about Pit lane...if we tried before it may have been before my time. I still think it could be done. Neck it down with cones from T9 to a super slow, damn near single file nasty tight right hander on the far left of the track, so that you are straight up and down entering pit lane. ALWAYS under a standing yellow, NO PASSING after T9 just prior to entering the T10Pit turn and then once in front of the grand stands you could pass and then game on once your on the big part of the track again. Beats donating to PMP or the club if we cancel for weather, and just like PPIR and HPR, you have a choice to race or not race. But atleast its a choice.....something we dont have right now at PMP. This club seems (to me) adverse to racing in the rain...no matter where we are. I love the rain races. Would be nice to have another track to run wet...even if it means being throttled back for 2 turns.

Just a thought.. :wink:

Gotcha. Not sure how it'd work with a grid of 30-40 novices going through, but that's what it would have to be. I love rain racing too and the MRA does seem risk adverse in that area, though some of that is just that we don't do it at PMP so those events are always stopped until dryness returns. A concern with this pit lane approach though is the runoff as well -- if you blow "Pit 10" and go straight, you end up on the drag area before too long. So much as touching the brakes on that stuff when wet will guarantee you hit the ground.

[rybo]

Chris / Ralph

We did run the "Pit Lane" option once in 2006 during the Vanmar Sponsored 4 hour endurance race we tried to run at Pueblo that year. It didn't go all that well. First rain, then lightning touching down about 100 yards off of T9 - it was pretty ugly.

I really don't mind racing in the rain - it makes my leathers stinky (not that they weren't already) and the bike is a pain to clean up, but I tend to do well in rain races, so I don't mind them so much.

That being said, pit lane at PMP isn't really a viable option for a race course. The lane is far too narrow for any kind of wheel to wheel racing (a stop and go with one bike is another thing) and there are a fair number of hard objects very close to what would be the race course.

It is my hope that someday they make a correction to the road course to completely avoid the burnout area of the dragstrip, but until that happens I don't think that racing in the rain at PMP is really a viable option.

[Clarkie]

From T9 to T10 is really wide, so would a chicane (right, left than right onto the main straight, but quite close to the actual T10 corner/tower) be possible? It would make the 'new' T10 a 1st gear corner where the motorbike speed when leaned over would be a lot slower, yeah the bikes could/would spin up through the drag strip but the bikes would be upright and the speed lower. Maybe a little narrow and very one line but wider than pit lane.

Just for the rain situation and it could be created with cones.

[graphite675]

And based on feedback from riders, we'll probably split the 4 races at HPR so that two are "full course" and two are "north course". This is essentially like having two completely different tracks - but in one place. Second Creek was that way - we ran it backwards on alternating events.



So is the "north course" what we did in round 1? (bypassing turns 4-8 ) Or would that be skipping turns 9-12?

.

[NossLou]

We should have a north course or full course vote for sure... I liked the north course A LOT but wouldn't prefer it over the full course. Just my .02 cents

[Bueller999]

PPIR is my least favorite track (now that La Junta is gone), but I do like a bit of variety. I really liked Pueblo's new surface, hopefully it stays nice. Being on a low HP bike I had no issues but then again it has been so long since I rode there that I didn't get up to speed until halfway through endurance, then it was red flagged :cry:
I would like 2 PMI, 1 PPIR and the remainder @ HPR with at least 1 of those being N. course.

[T Baggins]

And based on feedback from riders, we'll probably split the 4 races at HPR so that two are "full course" and two are "north course". This is essentially like having two completely different tracks - but in one place. Second Creek was that way - we ran it backwards on alternating events.



So is the "north course" what we did in round 1? (bypassing turns 4-8 ) Or would that be skipping turns 9-12?

.

North is what we did at Round 1 - taking out 4-8.

[T Baggins]

We should have a north course or full course vote for sure... I liked the north course A LOT but wouldn't prefer it over the full course. Just my .02 cents

As shitty as Turn 8 was last time we were there, and based on the fact that several riders said they'd skip HPR if we made them run thru that pig trough again... we're gonna run the North Course. No need for a vote, imo.

HPR may or may not be able to make meaningful repairs to it prior to our next event in August - and we'll run full course again then.

Plus, if we have the ability to run it two ways - why shouldn't we?

[graphite675]

North is what we did at Round 1 - taking out 4-8.

Just my 2 cents but I would probably be one to skip those rounds that ran the north course. I really like turns 4-8. I don't see north course as being a "different" course. It just takes away and doesn't add anything.

Again, just my opinion, I'm sure some like the shortened course. I'm just not one of them.

.

[rforsythe]

From T9 to T10 is really wide, so would a chicane (right, left than right onto the main straight, but quite close to the actual T10 corner/tower) be possible? It would make the 'new' T10 a 1st gear corner where the motorbike speed when leaned over would be a lot slower, yeah the bikes could/would spin up through the drag strip but the bikes would be upright and the speed lower. Maybe a little narrow and very one line but wider than pit lane.

Just for the rain situation and it could be created with cones.

Wouldn't matter actually. You can be absolutely vertical, and as soon as you crack the throttle and put torque down on wet traction compound you will be on your ass. Several of us watched Applesauce highside a stock SV650 trying that experiment years ago, straight up and down, and he slid all the way past the start/finish line. No traction is not an exaggeration -- I put my old truck out there and spun the rear tires until the speedo read 80mph and went about 3 feet forward.

[T Baggins]

North is what we did at Round 1 - taking out 4-8.

Just my 2 cents but I would probably be one to skip those rounds that ran the north course. I really like turns 4-8. I don't see north course as being a "different" course. It just takes away and doesn't add anything.

Again, just my opinion, I'm sure some like the shortened course. I'm just not one of them.

.

skip them because you only run 5 of 7 rounds anyway so you'll skip the ones you like the least... or skip them simply because you don't "prefer" that layout?

we're pretty spoiled here in Colorado. Look at the guys around the country who have truly horrible tracks... I guess they'd skip all the rounds too at the tracks they don't like if they could... but it's crap or nothing for them.

[graphite675]

skip them because you only run 5 of 7 rounds anyway so you'll skip the ones you like the least... or skip them simply because you don't "prefer" that layout?

we're pretty spoiled here in Colorado. Look at the guys around the country who have truly horrible tracks... I guess they'd skip all the rounds too at the tracks they don't like if they could... but it's crap or nothing for them.

I run what I can afford to run and what my job allows. I have mised the past 2 rounds and will probably miss the next because I am overseas supporting the Army.

If I had unlimited cash and time I would run all of them but if my budget is tight or family and job takes priority, yes I would skip the short track races in favor of spending my money on the full track days.

Yes we have nice tracks here (although very expensive) I was fortunate enough to come from another part of the country that had access to good tracks and was also much cheaper so I guess I have a little different perspective. Im sure many others have it much worse.

Not trying to argue here, just disagree with saying the north course is "different". It's just shorter.

.

[rforsythe]

Yes we have nice tracks here (although very expensive) I was fortunate enough to come from another part of the country that had access to good tracks and was also much cheaper so I guess I have a little different perspective. Im sure many others have it much worse.

We used to have it cheaper. The days were non-staffed, disorganized, and a lot of people got hurt (and a couple got killed). Track days here now cost a bit more but you know someone is there watching your back, and someone is there to explain how the day works. These two things are vital and absolutely worth paying a bit more. Nobody is getting rich off track days out here and the cost you pay more or less covers the costs of putting it on (and sometimes not even then).

I've also been to parts of the country where a typical track day like we have here costs twice as much, so we don't have it bad at all. Multiple tracks within an hour and a half of Denver, a solvent race club, open days you can go play ... really it's nothing to complain about.

[T Baggins]

North is what we did at Round 1 - taking out 4-8. I don't see north course as being a "different" course. It just takes away and doesn't add anything.

Not taking this as argumentative... appreciate the feedback. :)

I find the North course to be quite different...

Full bollox thru T4S instead of huge braking, then immediately back on the gas. Way faster thru 9 & 9a, then you actually have to brake a TON and downshift for T10 which is different. Layout favors guys who prefer high speed rather than tight turns... It's nice to let the bike run out on the ragged edge a bit.

We also run more laps, so strategy changes.

Not sure what it costs to put on a race where you used to race... but for us it's between $25K and $31K to host a race weekend.

By "expensive" comparatively you mean? Expensive to do a lapping day, or expensive race entry fees? Just curious 'cause I think our entry fees are among the lowest in the country.

[KFinn]

Multiple tracks within an hour and a half of Denver, a solvent race club, open days you can go play ... really it's nothing to complain about.
While I don't have any true experience myself, I can only say from what I hear and know from others. But this is very accurate in my opinion. Mere moved down to Texas where he was going to race with the CRMA. Turned out he couldn't really race much at all because the closest track was about 3 hours and the rest were 5 to 12 hours away. He couldn't afford the travel expenses and time off. Where as we here have cheap travel expenses and being 2 hours or less makes it easier on the days off.

[hcr25]

I think pueblo did a very good job in general. The surface is good with plenty of grip. It looks like alot of time was spent on the run off areas. This is much improved from the past.

The drag strip area was always slick and now it is worse but hopefully it will get better.

In my personal opinion turn ten is probably now one of the most dangerous turns I have raced on in the past 17 years. It was bad before and it was made much worse. It is the type of danger that one would expect racing the Pikes Peak International Hill Climb. A huge Armco wall protection us from a light pole, 30ish feet of run off before a tire wall in front of a concrete wall if you go straight off from 9 to 10. Once you are into the turn you have polished concrete burnout boxes to navigate. If something goes wrong there you have about ten feet before the concrete wall.

I think our club did the best they could to make it better. Airfence was deployed and we were cones away from the armco wall. I think a big reason we had so few crashes there was most of us were scared to push there. As speeds and confidence pick up bad things will happen there if changes are not made.

Mike Applehans #25

[mkdiehl]

HPR
Obviously turn 8 had issues but I find it hard to believe that it is a valid reason for boycotting the race. It is a slow speed corner that you just had to alter your line through to miss the one big hole. Not ideal, but worth all of the fuss? I think there were actually a few records set last time out even with this turn...

Tony, I wonder how many people won't show up based on the short course decision vs the number that claimed they wouldn't show if we did the full course. Might be worth a "vote" or at least discussion tonight?

I know at the end of the first race most said they enjoyed the short course but not sure how many preferred it......it was better than the alternative that day for sure.

Once was fun but arbitrarily deciding to do it again mid season......?

I am there either way.

[KFinn]

Crap..... I forgot the Gen MTG is tonight.

[KFinn]

FWIW, I loved the short course even though I was struggling getting the hang of the markers and my new bike. However that said, I am not sure if I would want 1 or 2 rounds of the short course.

At first blush I would like to do one round short and 3 long. I love turn 7 and enjoy 5.

[Snowman]

Turn 10 PMP

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/531675_10151245602610278_2142882542_n.jpg

Best image I can find of it.

[dave.gallant]

This should be a Google Maps Overlay:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Qhvl9Z_aB-w/T_30jpyyIuI/AAAAAAAACHk/AMBbWbOpDY8/s800/PMP_redzone.jpg

[Snowman]

Didn't every bike that slid out in turn 10 reach the a wall, air or otherwise?

[Snowman]

I see this as the only real solution to this turn. It would require more real estate for run off and some compromise for the wall for the drag racers.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/564155_10151245704125278_1671833797_n.jpg

I understand the lack of money the city is facing and they did what they could with what they had. But if a design can be agreed upon by everyone racing this track, car, bikes, drag racers. Then this can be worked toward.

[dave.gallant]

We can't be that close to the Armco on the entrance. That point is the most dangerous spot on the track for a motorcycle (in my humble opinion).

[Snowman]

Agreed... If I would have known that paving compactor was there, it would have mysteriously been put into reverse.

[T Baggins]

Once was fun but arbitrarily deciding to do it again mid season......?

Avoiding a part of the track which is severely damaged and capable of "causing crashes" is hardly arbitrary in my opinion.

Also, understand that "simply hitting your line and avoiding the pot-hole" is much easier when you're in the lead vs when you're in a pack of bikes. If you weren't so dang fast now on your 600 you'd know what I'm talking about. ;)

IIRC, people DID crash in T8 "because" of the degradation of the surface, or took crazy-weird lines to avoid the worst areas - which is totally sketchy 'cause riders aren't consistent thru the turn and you never know what the other guy is gonna do. This creates "lines of convergence" and ultimately crashes.

After our last round at HPR I suggested to Glenn and the CAMA Board that they CLOSE the West portion of the track IMMEDIATELY and get the contractor back in to fix the shoddy work. That way it would have time to adequately set up by Fall and we'd be good-to-go again by Winter. The cars are less disturbed by the damage, so there was limited support.

If you guys want to do a show of hands at the meeting tonight then I'm fine with that. If there is support for full-course then I'll do an e-mail blast and direct people to a poll online to be sure we've adequately heard the membership.

Part of the job of the Board of Directors is to do our best to ensure the success of our riders and their race programs, as well as their safety. Making (allowing?) racers run on damaged asphalt (when there is a viable alternative to avoid it) seems short-sighted at best......

[mkdiehl]

Ahhhh....part of the problem of responding to forums when you are in a meeting at work is that you forget your thought process....

I had meant to put in my post above the question of "were there crashes at T8 as a result of the damage?"

Tony has suggested there were. If that is the case then I do see his point.

I do remember unsuccessfully trying to pass Dara there......

I should never question the President......glad we live in America were the penalty for such isn't as severe.

[T Baggins]

Based on discussions with Glenn and Mike from HPR last night, it sounds like they will have made meaningful repairs to the damaged area in Turns 6 & 8 and they believe the surface will be markedly better. Not perfect, but way better.

Also, based on the feedback from riders at the General Meeting I will do an e-mail blast to members this morning asking them to chime in on their preference for the next round.

That said, if the repairs aren't good, or don't hold - I believe it wise to run the North course.

Also, it was interesting that NOBODY voted to run FULL Course Only 4 times a year. And it was basically 50/50 between guys who wanted to run 3:1 Full/North vs 2:2 Full/North.

It was also suggested that we "could" safely run the WEST Loop and so this is something we should look into. If it is viable, maybe we run it at Round 6 if we run full course at Round 5?

2013 - maybe 2 FULL, 1 North, 1 West?

Poll and New Forum Topic to follow...

[T Baggins]

I should never question the President......glad we live in America were the penalty for such isn't as severe.

It is FINE to question the President... but it's usually a waste of keystrokes since I'm generally right anwyay. :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:wink:


ps - Jen - Put Matt at the back of the grid next round please... :twisted:

[polar x]

Also, it was interesting that NOBODY voted to run FULL Course Only 4 times a year. And it was basically 50/50 between guys who wanted to run 3:1 Full/North vs 2:2 Full/North.

It was also suggested that we "could" safely run the WEST Loop and so this is something we should look into. If it is viable, maybe we run it at Round 6 if we run full course at Round 5?

2013 - maybe 2 FULL, 1 North, 1 West?

Poll and New Forum Topic to follow...

No different than the voting for 30 and 45 min endurance races. It was decided to alternate them....When it came time to alternate them only a couple of us wanted to run the longer 45 min stints :roll: So that went the way of the dodo bird..... :? :? You know what will happen with this to. :evil: No body likes change. I would schedule it so that we get a "new" track with each race. 3 new tracks at the same place...how freaking awesume is that!!! Miller does it. riders dont get a choice. We should do the same. Full, east, west courses....deal with it. For the record, I loved the new course. It was fun as hell and gave us something new to experience.

Change is good, that was proven with the new president and the succesfull direction this club has gone even with the loss of rider membership in this shit economy. Tony....just do it 8) 8)

[T Baggins]

Change is good, that was proven with the new president...

MRA, not USA - right? :lol:

Just checking. :lol: :lol:

[polar x]

Change is good, that was proven with the new president...

MRA, not USA - right? :lol:

Just checking. :lol: :lol:

absolutely F#$KI%G right!!!!!!!!!! Bakercare RULES!!!!! Obamalama screws :evil:

Carry on 8) 8)

[JWinter]

I like the idea of running different configurations at HPR, it changes the dynamics of the weekend. For me it opens up different race tactics than the full course. I would rather take full advantage of what HPR has to offer and remember we are helping pay for it. I would rather go to PPIR and PMP only one time a season and do 5 rounds at HPR (3 full, 1 north, and 1 west course).

I'm not sure I follow others perspective about running the shorter course configurations? Why is it a problem to run more laps on a shorter course? If this was a bad thing than why go to PPIR? PPIR is a relatively short course with not many turns? How about La Junta? We raced that track that had what 5 turns maybe?

I for one am very thankful for the track options we have and really thankful that we have partial ownership of a track.