Protest (me) Form for Download!

[dave.gallant]

Hello Friendly MRA Novices (and experts that don't like me):

Although I may technically be a Novice with this fine racing organization, I have been known to file my fair share of protests in my racing youth. As a service to you all, I have created a "Protest MRA #31" form which you can download and print for use at the next MRA race weekend at Pikes Peak. It seems last weekend there was some confusion for a few of you in your attempts to protest me, so I wanted to help:

http://www.motosix.com/pdf/Protest31.pdf

As you will see, it has all of the appropriate spaces for the required information you will need in protesting me, and I have even gone ahead and filled in my name on your behalf. Be sure you print out and have your copy of the MRA rulebook by next weekend, and that can be found here:

http://filezilla.mra-racing.org/files/2012MRARulebook.pdf

Why would I do this for you?

Because I like you. And I admire your spirit. But, ultimately, it is misguided and I will share why.

< SOAPBOX >

Now, this is simply my opinion, but I will share it with you.

You are being used. (Yes, you.) You are being milked for funds by those that have a vested interest in selling you all of those parts or services you don't really need. You have tire guys, and suspension guys, and tuners, all in their Sunday best lined up on the pit wall telling you how wonderful you are, how talented you are, and how -- if you step up to the latest tire/pad/fuel/gizmo -- you may just win that Novice race.

Wow oh wow oh wow! Then you will be going places!!! You will get free tires and free leathers and chics will dig you because you won the plastic trophy!

So, you dig deep. You blow the budget. You rack up a credit card bill that would even impress me. You have the 190 slicks and the latest GPS lap timer and the double clear coat paint. You have the mag wheels and the traction control and the self mapping wideband O2 sensor.

Surely you will win now! You should! You must! You have done it all right!

Then some Expert-in-Novice clothes starts dead last on the grid, running tires from 2007 on stock brake pads (and a whole lot of suspension setup), and runs around the outside of you in turn 2, waving. You dice for a bit, but even people on the pit wall can see he is short shifting the stock-motored motorcycle from 2006.

WTF? BURN HIM! PROTEST PROTEST PROTEST! SANDBAGGER!! And, right you are! You "paid" your dues and deserve that $15 plastic trophy!

"OK OK -- Get on with the moral of the story here" I hear you say:

You are the future of the MRA.

Right now, you might be a vengeful sad sack of a roadracer, but you are the future of roadracing in general. Our current winning new experts were slower than you once, and now they seriously haul the mail. You do the MRA, the sport, and yourself no good by burning through your finances in 2 years and contributing to the ~30% turnover the MRA experiences each and every season. You will get fast, and most of you will be faster than any current expert dreams to be. But, you won't do it in 1 or 2 seasons, and you won't do it by setting your sights on a "Novice Championship".

Ignore the shiny objects that compete for your finances. Ride your motorcycle. Learn how to set up your motorcycle. Run pump fuel, the best tires you can afford, buy laps and suspension. Ask Brownie for advice. Ask any MRA Board member for advice. Ask any ROR guy for advice. Race against those which will actually teach you how to go faster and not just those that are still learning themselves.

Stop contributing to the turnover.

Prove me wrong and be a part of this club 5 years from now. Stop the cycle of "winning NovU only to find out everyone in MWSS is too fast and end up quitting the sport". Mind your budget, hone your craft, then kick everyone's ass come race day on equal terms, not as "a novice".

< / SOAPBOX >

These are, of course, just my opinions.

As I have done in past years, I will once again suggest at the rules meeting this fall to remove the novice championship. That suggestion will not likely be adopted, but until then, I will see everyone on the NOVU grid at Pikes (and I am coming for your contingency).

I will have copies of the protest form in my pits. Stop by and say hello; I would love to meet you guys and I would be happy to give you a copy then.

[Clarkie]

But why would I spend $200 on having someone set my bike up even though it doesn't have $1500 cartridges in it to go 5 seconds a lap faster, when I could spend $2000 on a sweet motor build and go 1 second faster? Then buy a new set of tires each day and watch them year themselves apart after one race?

Stupid novice rider! :roll:

[jmaher]

Not to hijack the thread, but since you brought it up....what is a "self mapping wideband O2 sensor"? Seriously.

Joe

[graphite675]

Ok, I'm going to be the dumb new guy and ask the stupid question. I assume you were expert at some point and now have to race Nov this year?
'

;

[LordLosh]

I have read this a couple times and still can not make sense as to what you want or are trying to really accomplish here? Please explain why you feel Novice championship is bad? Just trying to learn or understand your point not trying to be a dick.

[dave.gallant]

Ok, I'm going to be the dumb new guy and ask the stupid question. I assume you were expert at some point and now have to race Nov this year?

Yes, and yes.

The Rulebook is like the force. It is elusive until it is actually read from front to back.

[dave.gallant]

I have read this a couple times and still can not make sense as to what you want or are trying to really accomplish here? Please explain why you feel Novice championship is bad? Just trying to learn or understand your point not trying to be a dick.

I am of the opinion that the purpose of a novice class should be to introduce racing to new individuals in the most controlled manner possible, not as a means for "Championships" (then disappointment and quitting the sport). It is my opinion that our rule structure promotes "staying a novice as long as possible", which I believe is counter productive to <you> as a rider.

These are just my opinions, and I really want more of our novices to stay racing with us than less; spending less and learning more.

[LordLosh]

I guess i need to look at it more, but i do agree it seems like there is a considerable group of riders in NGTO and U that are running lap times comparable to the top riders in Amateur. But how long can they really feel good and brag about winning or dominating a Novice race every year?

[dave.gallant]

Once the laptimes are posted, you will notice that I do not have the fastest time in the NovU race.

If I am sandbagging, what are the rest of the riders on the same second doing?

(chasing contingency and trophies)

[JWinter]

Dave, I couldn't have said that better. In fact I laughed and peed myself.

[Clarkie]

You have to understand Mr Gallant, chicks dig guys who spend $15,000 a year racing (bike, tires, hot engine mods from people that shouldn't be in business, and even hotter mods they read about on the interweb) to win a couple of $20 trophies. The best thing to impress your fan base with is when the hear you traction control cutting out as you go past the it wall........with the bike perfectly upright.

There is no way there could be a chance that with the TC you are going slower than if it wouldn't cut out, is there? Nah club racing is all about keepng up with everyone else off the track. So as long as you spend 4 years worth of racing budget in the first 6 months everything should work out fine :lol:

My broken old ass could line up next to you on the Novice grid as well as per the rule book 8)

[gsnyder828]

:lol:

Nice to have you back Dave!

[dave.gallant]

:lol:

Nice to have you back Dave!

At least a few of you see the humor and oddity in this. I was welcome to the track my first weekend back by being hugged by some and protested by others. Even though I did not ask for it, I am in somewhat of a unique position to test the theory:

Would "fast" novices move up if there was no incentive to stay? followed closely by Will the MRA retain more racers if Novices became Amateurs or Experts faster?

I honestly do not know the answers to the above two questions. Possibly we would retain less because fast novices would not even do an entire season. Possibly we would retain more because fast novices would learn to budget sooner rather than later. I honestly do not know.

(And, for those of you new to me, this would not be the first rule in the rulebook specifically for/because of me)

[dave.gallant]

My broken old ass could line up next to you on the Novice grid as well as per the rule book 8)

Yes, indeed. Travis Graham, Doug Vickery; there is a long list of wicked fast guys that could do the same.

The rule that allows experts to come back and race as a novice is done with good intentions. I used it to allow me to stay out of the fast classes like MWSB and the like when I have not been on the track in literally years.

What I found when actually out there however only strengthened my opinion formed over previous years that the novice designation is being abused by those interested in selling products and by those who are already able to podium in Amateur or Expert classes. (Why Hello Mr National Tire Distributor standing on the wall during the NovU race. How nice to see Novice wins being used in press releases promoting your brand!)

Protest away Sheeple. I even created you the form to use.

[Rockstar]

I don’t have the history that most of you do with Dave, but when I heard (second and third hand) about his actions on Saturday I must say, I applauded him for such a classy act towards those like myself in Novice that are trying to enter the support.

I can’t speak for everyone obviously, but I am here to have some fun and apparently so is Dave. So at the end of the day, after you (Dave) beat the sh** out of me and my fellow novice riders, let’s have a beer and some laughs about some of the crazy things we saw out there. No one here is going Pro anytime soon so let’s have some fun with it.

Cheers mate!

[R1-2NV]

Dave this made me laugh so hard I almost spit on my PC..

Good to have ya back. Funny perspective from the old school.


The rules are the rules.....good or bad. Funny how everybody wants the MRA to enforce the rules then when they do its a issue. I will come by and grab one of the forms even tho I'm a expert just so you can get banned or whatever they do to you. :)

[mra908]

I actually moved out of Novice as soon as I could so guys like this effing goat loving cheater could hopefully teach me a thing or two on the way past instead of racing with forty other newbies for the "Best Beginner" trophy. Seemed sort of pointless to me. (Disclaimer: I was, and am still not, anywhere near fast enough to have been in the running for "best beginner" anyway. I just wanted to run with more experienced racers.)

I wholeheartedly agree on not blowing the budget on a couple of seasons, either. Of course I've taken it to the other extreme of only making a couple of races a year on an old SV, then when the kids are out of college maybe I can step it up to five races :roll: . But at least I'll still be enjoying the club and sport I joined in 2004 rather than having totally quit back in 07 had I tried to win the cubic dollar contest. There's a middle ground: spend on riding schools, safe tires and a reliable bike with decent suspension, and skip the "must have" widgets and motor work til you're racing for enough money to make that stuff pay for itself. And sit out a weekend now and then to save money if you have to. Now the old slow guy will shut up.

Dave, missed your posts. If I can get my broke ass (not broke back) back down there, I'll have to pit near you just for the humor. And so I don't have to walk very far to pick up a protest form.

[mkdiehl]

Edited.....but I feel better now.....

[Rockstar]

I guess I am little confused about the Novice championship comments. There are tiers of success in every form of racing (and most professional sports). You have to start somewhere, and everyone should have a goal to strive for, even if said goal is really just an acceptance into a larger structure where winning becomes less and less likely.

[kfm61]

hmmm,,,,,

Guess I should get my act together and plan a race or two this year, that way I can come back as a novice, 'cause we all know I'm just a grid filler in either white or yellow plate !

Good to see you're back on the track Dave!

[Wayniac]

So I should feel better about my performance knowing I'm going up against a bunch of sandbaggers out for easy money? So when I finally hone my skills I could just blow off my novice hours to stay a novice and sandbag too?
Or am I missing the point all together?

[dave.gallant]

Let me very clear for just one moment:

Matt D is a truly gifted rider and gentleman racer. I do not direct my comments towards him although I do hope (and expect) to see him kicking expert a$$ in RORU sooner rather than later because he is capable of doing just that.

My comments are directed towards the culture we as a race organization have created where being the fastest novice is as important as being the fastest racer; to those who believe building a superbike motor is more important than understanding the basics of suspension setup; to those who protest me without even reading the rulebook.

Odd as it may sound, I want to retain all of our racers. (Yes, even you who won't read the rulebook), and am baiting you guys into an argument in hopes that some form of consensus can be found down the road this fall. I don't just do this for the club. I do this for very personal reasons: I want an MRA to exist so I can race too.

But, pretend you didn't read any of that.

Instead, tell me why I am full of shit. Tell me why having vendor pressure, championship pressure, and contingency pressure is all a good thing for retaining novice racers and contributes to their continued success and retention in our club.

[Wayniac]

Interesting. I think I see the point you are making now. So if we removed the novice championship, would that remove all contingency from novice racing? I was pretty excited to find out that a win would get me a 100 bucks from my "tire" sponsor. Or 50 from a "brake" sponsor. I'm very new to this form of racing. I'm doing it as cheap as possible as well. No quick shift, kit ecu, exotic rear set, 10,000 dollar cheater motor, 10 sets o' slicks etc....etc.... Just my desire to compete, race and win. So that being said, I'll print out a stack of protest forms. Can I borrow the $25 though? :wink:

[Clarkie]

A lot of contingency I'd paid per race event not for year end positions so if I get what Dave if saying send race event placings into contingency companies which they need, but don't tally the points up over the year.

This way racers still get contingency to help them keep racing but leave it at that.

[Wayniac]

I remember similar things happening back in my mx days, especially at the youth level. A lot of 80 riders at the amateur level would pull off track at the last minute to avoid getting "marks" and having to move to the 80 pro class. Then come arenacross season under the AMA they could register as a novice. There was a good chunk of cash up for grabs, cherry picking at it's finest. I remember being so pissed off that I had to race against my local "80pros" at those events and never getting any YZ bucks. Regardless, I kept at it, I got better and had some moments of glory.

This brings me to a thought, what if we dropped the novice championship and put the actual novice in that class and made a real Amateur class where the "fast" novice would go to compete for championships, money and other fabulous prizes?

[marty]

Instead, tell me why I am full of shit. Tell me why having vendor pressure, championship pressure, and contingency pressure is all a good thing for retaining novice racers and contributes to their continued success and retention in our club.


The one benefit to having a novice championship to some new racers is it may be their only perceived chance for a championship because they are hell bent on racing inline 4s. Personally I chased the Colorado Class championship a few years back like my job was based on it. It was fun to put myself under that much pressure even though this is just a hobby. I don't think I ever even won any tire money, maybe $100 in VP $ but thats about it. Maybe other novices think the same about their season, this may be their chance of racing like it is a job, just for kicks.

I agree that putting yourself in debt and not being able to return to the club is bad for the long term health of the club, but I don't know how you will ever get a bunch of dudes with credit cards in their pockets to not spend too much on racing dyno charts. I think it may just be the nature of the beast, it seems to be that way across the board in all forms of amateur racing. Don't get me wrong, I see your point but I don't know if there is a way around it. Tire vendors make a lot of money on the novice class, and in turn are their to support some of the poorly attended expert classes.

Personally I don't think anyone should start on anything faster than an SV, but then again I spent my novice years on a 125 trying to get past 600s and 1000s and have in turn learned a fair amount about putting corners together, corner speed an on occasion a little race craft

Maybe its like Tee ball and everyone wants to get a trophy :D Some people are in it for the long haul and others just want to do it as long as they are successful

[Bueller999]

IMO I think if a novice podiums 3 or 4 times they should be bumped.

I raced 2/3 of my first year running both Nov and both Am classes on an older R6. I petitioned to be bumped to expert without ever placing higher than 4th in any of the classes so I could ride LWGP. Best move I ever made to that point. Last year I did something even more beneficial to my riding, I moved to a Ninja250. Now this year I have moved back up to an SV and I feel so much more confident in my skills that I am having a great time and finally took home one of those $15 trophies. It was also the first time I put on a new set of actual race tires. :lol:

[graphite675]

IMO I think if a novice podiums 3 or 4 times they should be bumped.


^ Now I like that idea.

I'm still not 100% sure I understand where Dave is going with all of this but I think having a Novice championship is not all a bad thing?
I personally have no intention of staying a novice all my life and will move up as soon as I am able. With that said it is still nice to have goals and reward being a novice. It's something to work towards.
It's like starting a new job and working your way towards that next promotion. It's just another stepping stone.

With that said I do believe that there should be a mechanism in place to prevent people from sandbagging the class as well.

Either way, I'm just out there to have fun, enjoy myself, and push myself to that next level. I'm too old to think I might be the next Rossi :lol:

.

[oldtimer]

LOL Dave! Like I said on Saturday, it was funny seeing a 2 digit novice plate.

[dave.gallant]

Last Weekend:

MWSS: 8 Finishers
MWSB: 11 Finishers
RORU: 5 Finishers

Nov U: 32 Finishers
AM U: 29 Finishers

We had 5 times the amount of riders in Nov U than we do in ROR U.

Is there so little return on investment in the expert classes that the top 5 in Novice will simply stay rather than go be a top 5 in MWSS? Top 5 in MWSB? 6th place ROR was open this weekend for any talented 600 rider...

Of our 30 NovU riders, how many won't return next year because they now have to run AM/Expert classes instead?

Or, maybe I am completely and utterly wrong. Should I instead be suggesting to add another Novice Championship class so we could have 2 classes in the MRA where there are 30+ bikes on the grid at all times?

These are honest questions boys and girls. Your responses so far have been awesome.

[dave.gallant]

I remember similar things happening back in my mx days, especially at the youth level. A lot of 80 riders at the amateur level would pull off track at the last minute to avoid getting "marks" and having to move to the 80 pro class. Then come arenacross season under the AMA they could register as a novice. There was a good chunk of cash up for grabs, cherry picking at it's finest. I remember being so pissed off that I had to race against my local "80pros" at those events and never getting any YZ bucks. Regardless, I kept at it, I got better and had some moments of glory.

This brings me to a thought, what if we dropped the novice championship and put the actual novice in that class and made a real Amateur class where the "fast" novice would go to compete for championships, money and other fabulous prizes?

Two questions:

Did the MX guys ever come up with a way of coaxing the "80pros" to stop pulling off and move up?

We already have AMU. Instead of <some class here with low signups>, possibly another AMU/O-like class? Or, ROR-AM (with the existing ROR-EX)? Then, never kick anyone out of novice. Let them stay in the novice class forever if they wish, but no points and no contingency.

(I am brainstorming with you guys here. Give me some better ideas...)

[spideyrdr]

Out of the 30+ men and women who gridded up for NovU and NovO, my guess is only a couple racers apply to Dave's beef. Most of us, I think anyway, are going out there with realistic goals that are much different than winning a championship. It's great to be racing in a series that IS a championship, but I would guess most of us are racing for pride, improving our racecraft, a chance at a top 10 finish or two this season, or finishing in the top 10 overall to get a white plate.

Do some racers walk away because they aren't as competitive as they had hoped? Sure, a few racers might be dreaming winning it all, and when they realize they can't, they walk away. But look at the other racers in the grid who have been racing at a medium pace for years and keep coming back.

Do others rack up too much debt and have to bail out due to a lack of funds? No doubt. But, again, look at the other racers in the grid who have been racing on a sustainable budget for years and keep coming back.

Rather than paint with a broad stroke that characterizes the Novice races and racers as a problem, why not look at the actual outcome from, let's say, last year. The overall top 10 racers from last year typically all finished in the top 15 each race, so they were at least somewhat competitive with each other all year. At least 8 out of the top 10 guys from NovU last year raced this past weekend, that's not so bad. It seems like a 10 ten finish in NovU (and hence a shot at a white plate) didn't keep racers from coming back this year.

I guess I am with a few others who are sure what your true issue is, Dave, as you've made some broad statements. You state you are directing your comments toward "the culture we as a race organization have created where being the fastest novice is as important as being the fastest racer." For a good number of us, that ISN'T the case. The culture some (most?) of us subscribe to is in line with the mission of the MRA. What's important to more than a few of us is to get out there, improve our craft, learn about technique and the technical side of things, have some safe, spirited fun on and off the track, and be able to brag up our meager accomplishments to our friends and family who think we're crazy for doing what we do.

It seems like your issue is with the minority and may be limited to a small handful of racers. Maybe I was just too far back in the pack to see what the problem was - I am willing to admit that being 'back there' may have left me clueless as to what all the fuss is about. But that's ok since I plan to be back at each race to have some fun and try to achieve the goals I set for myself coming into the season - on my "state-of-the-art" '03 R6, my very limited race budget, and doing so while sleeping in the back of my Jeep when necessary. Good times!

If the guys in the first few rows new week have the latest and greatest technology and can flog me, that only means I get to keep trying to improve with what I have. The only one I am out there to beat is me - that and maybe a few other guys that race at a similar medium pace.

I look forward to racing with this club in whichever classes I can afford to do while I can still do it. I said it elsewhere and I will reiterate it here - Congrats to all my competitors this weekend. Whether you finished in front of me or behind me, it was a pleasure to race with you. See you all at PPIR, whether you're on a cheater bike or a beater bike.

Cheers,
Jamie

[Bueller999]

Related to my previous post, my idea would be a points system. 1st = 3 pnts. 2nd = 2pts. 3rd =1pnt. When you reach 9 or 12 pnts. You are bumped.
They get trophies and contingency for the time you are a winning novice and it would eliminate sandbagging because there is no point in it.

[jeff healy]

The issue is trying to eliminate the sandbagging while not losing racers because they are forced to runa white plate. What about some type of mentoring program for first year experts? I know the hand holding has to stop somewhere but it may be what it takes for people to graduate and see that it is still possible to win! I know that 2 of the top 3 in MWSS this weekend were Novices with me last year and now they are killing it in the expert classes. I am one of those that ran my novice classes last year for my first year of racing and when the opportunity to graduate this season came around I couldn't wait! I just finished my first weekend as an expert with a 2nd in thunderbike and a 3rd in ROR U and felt like I was cherry pickin in expert classes more than in Nov because there are so few people on the grids!

I do think that the reason I was excited to move up to expert was that I was allowed to race a couple of expert races towards the end of my novice season and it let me know that it's really not that big of a jump! Plus the opportunity to learn so much faster having to keep up rather than being in the front not learning was motivating.

So i'm sure that jumped all over the place because I've had way too much coffee this morning but hopefully there was something useful there :)

[rforsythe]

This thread rocks, and not just because I laughed my ass off at the first post. I've protested myself out of a race before, but never gone as far as distributing pre-filled forms to other riders.



My broken old ass could line up next to you on the Novice grid as well as per the rule book 8)

Best. Novice. Race. Ever.


What about some type of mentoring program for first year experts? I know the hand holding has to stop somewhere but it may be what it takes for people to graduate and see that it is still possible to win!

It's informal, but I've never seen a seasoned expert refuse to give advice to a new expert, and will often coach as well (some have made a side profession of it). Much in the same light as "adopt a novice" that a lot of us do, it's not a defined mentoring program but the opportunity is there for those who wish to learn.

Along those lines, perhaps those who were protesting and bitching about Dave's presence should view it as "holy crap, I have this fast-as-fuck expert level racer out with me for the next 7-9 laps, I'm gonna learn something from this guy".

[nobasin]

i think adding this class would help retain racers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/sports/motorized-polo-gains-a-foothold-in-east-africa.html?hp

[Young Luke]

Dave, I found my initial irritation with you blowing by me with your expert skillz in NovU quickly transferred into me making the same move on someone else a lap later. So thanks for that :)

I actually did the race school with you at the clubhouse at SCR back in 05. I remember you, you surely don't remember me. I didn't get to race after that until late last year.

I want to learn, and take lessons and seek advice wherever I can. I compete against myself primarily, but I wouldn't be a racer if I didn't want to be faster than the other guy and try to beat him/her to the line.

I'm a novice, in this novice system that we have. If I do get a podium, I have some stickers that will get me a prize, and will get a little trophy. Those things are cool - who doesn't want to win something? At the end of the day: Big deal. That's not my primary motivation.

Keeping up with, and maybe some day dicing with you and the others is my motivation. Secondarily, I LOVE working on my bike. Thirdly, hanging out with everyone here is about the coolest thing I've ever done.

I crashed my ass off on Sunday in AmO. Over the last couple of days recovering from my concussion, hardly able to walk (said without discounting the more serious injuries of the others that crashed), all the normal thoughts went through my mind:

"Maybe I should re-think this", "Giggity-Giggity-Goo", "its going to cost as much to replace just my personal gear as I had budgeted for tires for the rest of the season","family","broken bike", "I'm not as fast as that cherry picker Dave Gallant anyways"....

F**k it. I will be at Pike's, and I will be doing my best to follow you, learn from you, Matt and everyone else.

My bike isn't as shiny as it was on Saturday morning with its fancy paint and clear coat, but its a perfect tool to serve my motivation. And what better way to get to work on it than crashing it? ](*,)

Luke

[dave.gallant]

Along those lines, perhaps those who were protesting and bitching about Dave's presence should view it as "holy crap, I have this fast-as-fuck expert level racer out with me for the next 7-9 laps, I'm gonna learn something from this guy".

Actually, it is:

"Holy crap. This guy used to be fast as snot but now looks like he is trying to text and drive on that thing. I sure hope he can keep that pile on the track!"

Fast is relative. I am slow compared to most, and quick compared to some. This thread was and is not about me tooting my horn, but about why in the sam-heck we have 5 bikes in RORU and 31 bikes in Novice GTU.

And, why someone in that 30-bike-pile-up would rather protest an "expert" than become an expert themselves. There is some motivation which I don't fully understand and am hoping to better understand by starting this conversation.

[dave.gallant]

i think adding this class would help retain racers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/sports/motorized-polo-gains-a-foothold-in-east-africa.html?hp

And I quote:

A Lot Like Polo, Only Faster and With Beer

I think you are onto something here!

[Wayniac]

I remember similar things happening back in my mx days, especially at the youth level. A lot of 80 riders at the amateur level would pull off track at the last minute to avoid getting "marks" and having to move to the 80 pro class. Then come arenacross season under the AMA they could register as a novice. There was a good chunk of cash up for grabs, cherry picking at it's finest. I remember being so pissed off that I had to race against my local "80pros" at those events and never getting any YZ bucks. Regardless, I kept at it, I got better and had some moments of glory.

This brings me to a thought, what if we dropped the novice championship and put the actual novice in that class and made a real Amateur class where the "fast" novice would go to compete for championships, money and other fabulous prizes?

Two questions:

Did the MX guys ever come up with a way of coaxing the "80pros" to stop pulling off and move up?

We already have AMU. Instead of <some class here with low signups>, possibly another AMU/O-like class? Or, ROR-AM (with the existing ROR-EX)? Then, never kick anyone out of novice. Let them stay in the novice class forever if they wish, but no points and no contingency.

(I am brainstorming with you guys here. Give me some better ideas...)

No, if anything they made it worse by coming up with the school boy class. Which would allow a young amateur to stay instead of becoming a pro.

Not to change the subject but who can dial my suspension in for 200 bucks that would save me 5 seconds a lap? That would have got me the win on saturday from the second wave. Insert suspension tuner here. :wink:

[jeff healy]

so another thought I have as I sit and enjoy this read. I also race with the Usba and their attendance is half of what ours is, yet the KOM grids there are twice as big. Anybody know what they are doing different? They also have 3 wave starts for their Nov grids and only make the top 5 graduate so how is this happening!?!?

[jeff healy]

Dave at STM will do it for less than $200 and working with him last year got me 4 seconds in one weekend! Learned a lot about suspension and how valuable it really is!

[rforsythe]

Actually, it is:

"Holy crap. This guy used to be fast as snot but now looks like he is trying to text and drive on that thing. I sure hope he can keep that pile on the track!"

Fast is relative. I am slow compared to most, and quick compared to some. This thread was and is not about me tooting my horn, but about why in the sam-heck we have 5 bikes in RORU and 31 bikes in Novice GTU.

And, why someone in that 30-bike-pile-up would rather protest an "expert" than become an expert themselves. There is some motivation which I don't fully understand and am hoping to better understand by starting this conversation.

You know what would help? Getting your damn cheater gas tank up out my garage! :x

[T Baggins]

I like the idea of a "novice championship" coming from TOTAL points by a Novice in the year as follows:

Start the year as a novice - run NovU, NovO, AmU, AmO (or some of the other oddball classes which we allow novices to petition into).

Finish top 5 twice in Nov U or Nov O (or AmU or AmO) and move up to "provisional expert". That would then allow you to enter "expert classes", and you could still run Amateur (but not Novice any more...) so your opportunity to earn more points is increased by the number of classes you can now run.

Or, depending on your bike, you could just keep racing as a Novice in the oddball classes to accumulate points (STU, MVU, MVO, COLO, LWGP, End, etc...) if IT isn't fast enough to finish top 5 in Nov or Am.

Then Top 10 (or whatever it is...) "Overall Novice" would move up to Expert for the following season regardless of how they attained their Top 10. If you attained the level of "provisional expert", but didn't finish Top 10, you would have the choice of moving up to expert the following season, or staying Novice - but the same rules apply for the next year, so you'd be moved up soon enough anyway.

This would do three things, which I believe are the essence of the discussion here:

1) It would still provide a carrot for Novices to win a championship (either as a provisional expert, or as a fast novice who does well in the oddball classes).

2) It would move uber-fast Novices up earlier so they can learn the tricks of racecraft by racing against Experts sooner.

3) It would thin the Novice Grids by about 25% over the course of the year - which makes a trophy all the more achievable for the remaining riders (their carrot gets closer each weekend).

4) It would increase the Expert Grids by about 50% over the course of the year.

The BEST chance of winning a Novice Championship would be on a 600cc bike or SMALLER as you can ride up into nearly anything - which I believe is the smart thing for Novices to do anyway...

Hmmmm.

[Wayniac]

That may be the best solution, stay Novice as long as you want but no points or contingency. I'm all for racing against people better than me. That's how you improve. I think the returning expert run as novice rule is stupid. It makes no sense. A grid of 5 racers is hardly a grid. That's follow the leader at best, and doesn't seem like much fun. This is tough problem.

[DOUBLE A]

Or just put all second year & older novices on mini's!?

[hcr25]

Them 2007 race tires were a matched set, that's why they worked so good. I only ran the 07 rear in my first three classes :)

[dave.gallant]

Them 2007 race tires were a matched set, that's why they worked so good. I only ran the 07 rear in my first three classes :)

You keep your paws off my secret weapons!

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/15080/377239-shakeandbake_1_.jpg

[jeff healy]

I really like Tony's idea! It seems like a great way to gently move people up. Only problem is that it would favor certain bikes which doesn't bother me cuz I like to ride weird S*@t but some may not do as well due to what they already have as a race bike. Either way I would support it!

[sheispoison]

Not to change the subject but who can dial my suspension in for 200 bucks that would save me 5 seconds a lap? That would have got me the win on saturday from the second wave. Insert suspension tuner here. :wink:

Dave Rose. Call him now as he is a fucking genius and a wizard so he's busy. Single Track Mind- 970-682-2071.

[T Baggins]

So here's a weird bike example for you Jeff, that certainly would not be expected to do well in NovU/O or AmU/O -

the trusty SV650.

You can still run it in those 4 classes - as well as in LWEND, HWEND, STU, LWGP - as a Novice.

for simple math, say Say you finished 25th in each Novice and AM class class which is 6 points x 4 = 24 points

say you finished 15th in both HWEnd, LWEnd 16 points x 2 = 32 points

and 10th in STU and LWGP 21 points x 2 = 42 points

so for the weekend you'd have 98 points even with those very realistic finishes.

the guy on an open bike who can ONLY run NovO, AMO, and EndO - even if he wins both Nov and AM and finishes 5th in EndO will have only 98 as well... and soon as he moves up to Provisional Expert, he's out of Novice and certainly won't do as well in the open Expert classes - so the little guy still has a fighting chance imo.

[cjmagnuss]

I bet some vendors wouldn’t be in business if there weren’t 1st year novices spending 4 years race budget in one season. I think Dave points out that the vendor business culture doesn’t work well for retaining new novice racers. I have no beef with any of the vendors, you’re providing parts and services that racers (me included) need and it’s not your position to say no to a novice who wants to max out their credit cards thinking they’ll drop a few seconds (and get that plastic trophy). But, the Amway like culture encourages (and pressures) racers looking to improve their abilities to spend money with X vendor for this and Y vendor for that. It can be a bit overwhelming and I can see how quickly and easily it can spiral out of control for some people (i.e. Well, I’m already in it for X dollars, why not spend a little more… every weekend). Thus very quickly, you’re not able to race anymore and have to sell everything to pay off credit cards. I know we’ve all seen this and unfortunately seen some real talent come and go.

[jeff healy]

As a vendor and a racer I see both sides of the coin. I'm a firm believer that longevity in a business plan is the only way to survive. If all the racers go out and blow their wad the first year and can't afford to return, you no longer have anyone to sell your product to. I would rather work with them to make a planthat works and help keep them in the sport as a customer for life! I think a lot of people are getting that lately and I think that is a big reason we still have a club and a lot of others don't. So, I guess this turned into a shamless thumbs up to our board and club for thinking ahead and continuing to by brainstorming things like this instead of just jacking up prices and trying to make money :) Now lets go race our asses off!!

[Desmodromico]

This thread was and is not about me tooting my horn, but about why in the sam-heck we have 5 bikes in RORU and 31 bikes in Novice GTU.

As a slow ass expert who obviously didn't stay in novice long enough (maybe I should have an orange vest with my white plate), I would say it is because there seems to be a huge jump in speed and time/resources required. While I would like to say I'd race MWSB or ROR-U and try to learn from the fast guys, I'd likely be running a solitary race after the first half a lap, so I run Thunderbike, AM-U, and Endurance hoping to find some people to race with, often unsuccessfully as most of the other experts who aren't really fast have hung it up. No matter the speed you go, if you have people to compete with racing is a hell of a lot more fun.

I have kids, a job that requires a lot of travel, and a budget that is probably more than some but much less than a lot of others. I am lucky to get 3-4 track days a year to try to improve, and it can be frustrating on weekends like this one where I ran my best times in Saturday practice and then chased tire/suspension/clutch issues all weekend and got slower and slower.

Unfortunately racing is like the NFL, most have short careers, and people try to chase the "glory" while they can in that short time. I don't think 8th place in ROR is as impressive as a Novice win in a lot of people's minds even though they are very different levels, or at least are supposed to be skill-wise.

[T Baggins]

Hey Dave, there's a typo on your protest form... I downloaded it anyway, and am studying the rulebook every night between now and PPIR.

I'm SURE I'll find SOMETHING.... ! :twisted: :lol:

[dave.gallant]

Hey Dave, there's a typo on your protest form... I downloaded it anyway, and am studying the rulebook every night between now and PPIR.

I'm SURE I'll find SOMETHING.... ! :twisted: :lol:

"...I always screw up some mundane detail..."

At the monthly meeting I did hear something encouraging:

Riders can run SuperStreet as many times as they want.

I am done with this fastest-novices-in-the-west donkey show. I am going to sand those yellow plates right off and go race SUPERSTREET!

[dave.gallant]

Two interesting things to note in the rulebook when reading it this evening:

We do not do a great job defining what a protestable offense is versus a non-protestable offense. Can a rider be protested for his number if it meets technical requirements? Can a rider be protested for a technical requirement that is not listed as a protestable offense? (eg: placement of transponder comes to mind as an example). I understand we will never capture everything.

I really like your idea (Tony) of providing a method of enticing our novices to partake in the expert grids while distributing the contingency across as many participants as possible. Now if we could use that to address the shrinking expert grids and show rider retention, I would be most impressed.

[T Baggins]

At the monthly meeting I did hear something encouraging:

Riders can run SuperStreet as many times as they want.

Imperfect from the standpoint of building our racing membership, but at least they're doing it on the track with us instead of in the canyons (on Saturdays anway...), and it's turned to be a good source of revenue both from the entry fees and the specators they bring.

SS guys seem to bring 3-4 people with them to watch; there have been years where I've brought exactly NO ONE with me - so we're gaining exposure and income because of their ongoing participation.

If we "make them" license up after a period of time, I'll bet we'd lose most of them.

And it's a "perfect novice class" by your standards... no results, no trophies, no championship. But even that is not enough to dissuade some, and so they might as well ride with us!

[dave.gallant]

And it's a "perfect novice class" by your standards... no results, no trophies, no championship. But even that is not enough to dissuade some, and so they might as well ride with us!

Do we have a vision or intent for what the "Novice" classification means with our fine organization?

Not a definition mind you, but what we hope to create or instill in these budding stars?



(And, no. By my definition, a perfect novice class would be one that preps my bike and makes sure my glass is always full of cool sweet lemonade while I nap awaiting the F40 class.)

[T Baggins]

I really like your idea (Tony) of providing a method of enticing our novices to partake in the expert grids while distributing the contingency across as many participants as possible.

Now if we could use that to address the shrinking expert grids and show rider retention, I would be most impressed.

If you really think it thru, I believe it would do EXACTLY THAT. Fill expert grids, share the wealth at the Novice level, and essentially provide for(force?) people to ride in classes/groups where they are competitive with their peers.

Sandbaggers, put down your shovels... They will be of no use to you any more.


NOW the next thing is tackling expert rider retention... on a LONG TERM basis.


Anybody interested in a SPEC 600 series, ala the 250 Cup, but on "real" motorcycles...? :D :shock:

[gsnyder828]

Anybody interested in a SPEC 600 series, ala the 250 Cup, but on "real" motorcycles...? :D :shock:

=D>

[T Baggins]

Do we have a vision or intent for what the "Novice" classification means with our fine organization?

Not a definition mind you, but what we hope to create or instill in these budding stars?

In my mind, the Novice Classes should be a "relatively" safe haven for new riders to learn the sport and hone their skills (with riders of similar skill) until such a time that they are ready for expert competition. Some are ready sooner than others - some may never be ready. In my mind that's ok.

The term "Expert" suggests you have "mastered" something to a certain degree. Until you have mastered the art of riding a motorcycle around a racetrack, quickly and safely, you are a novice.

I've been playing golf since I was in my twenties, but I am definitely still a Novice - and probably always will be. The ONLY part of golf I've mastered is communicating effectively with the beer girl about needing her to come by at least 4 times during my round. If you tip well enough, they will do that... but simply knowing that does not make me an expert by any means.

[sheispoison]

Although don't really feel like a novice, I definitly don't feel like an expert either. The hard part about leveling the playing field like you suggest is what do you do when guys come in from out of town? Where do they fall in if the club they came from still has the same kind of 3 tiered system? Just thinking...

[lars]

2fiddy arent real? :?:
I'm in with further spec classes!!!!!

[T Baggins]

The hard part about leveling the playing field like you suggest is what do you do when guys come in from out of town? Where do they fall in if the club they came from still has the same kind of 3 tiered system? Just thinking...

Same rules apply - if they're a Novice in their club, they're a novice in our club - until they mark out as I've described. Wouldn't be any different whether it's a guy from out of state, or a local guy who starts at round 3... once he finishes top 5 twice, he's bumped up.

If they have an "amateur" or Provisional Expert designation with their club, then we'd put them in the Middle with our guys.

[Wayniac]

Although don't really feel like a novice, I definitly don't feel like an expert either. The hard part about leveling the playing field like you suggest is what do you do when guys come in from out of town? Where do they fall in if the club they came from still has the same kind of 3 tiered system? Just thinking...

When I suggested an amateur class, this is what I was talking about. It would require another plate brackground (Black comes to mind) It would be for the riders in between novice/expert speeds. You wouldn't need to add classes, but I would not let novice run amateur classes. Still leave endurance open to novice so they can get in track time with more experienced riders. As far as filling ROR grids, maybe allow riders to ride both but have to pick one for scoring and championship. (assuming an amateur is withing the 115% lap time tolerance) Out of state riders visiting would be placed accordingly to there current classification.

[Clarkie]

Anybody interested in a SPEC 600 series, ala the 250 Cup, but on "real" motorcycles...? :D :shock:

A spec 600 class would be even easier to cheat in than the 250 class 8)

[ducati7044]

WOW! Hey Dave, your introduction and explanation was fantastically written. Well done. Oh, by the way, when I was a "novice" we were still running BIAS ply tires!! Luxury then was a knee slider that was held on with velcro rather than duc tape and a helmet that actually fit!

[dave.gallant]

...when I was a "novice" we were still running BIAS ply tires!! Luxury then was a knee slider that was held on with velcro rather than duc tape and a helmet that actually fit!

Circa RZ/RD?

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d58/RD350b/RZ350B_edited.jpg

[glenngsxr]

Speaking from personal experience, I don't think it was the novice years or even the amateur years where I became part of that turnover. It was actually the 2nd or 3rd expert year. There is a clear delineation between the new experts and the seasoned experts simply due to the tightened gaps between lap times.

Example, finding a full second as a novice is easy. Can be done through becoming a better racer and is worth at least 4-5 spots at the finish. You can make these gains for quite awhile.

You jump up to amateur/expert stuff and it gets a little tougher. Finding a full second gets tougher and passing more people gets harder as well. You start to look for other ways to gain time. Most folks resolve this issue by throwing money at it. This is a one-way street and why I think the turnover is so high, especially among the experts. This was my situation to a T. I got stuck in the expert class running around in 6th or 7th place and it got old. I threw money at it and actually went backwards from being so frustrated and not having any fun. Luckily, I saw the writing on the wall before I went broke.

I don't think you will ever be able to control the turnover at any level in racing. Many people have always wanted to "try it out" and become novices. It either is or isn't what you expected and you stay or move on. Simple as that. If you come back to be an expert, you are obviously hooked and are choosing to stick around......until you either run out of money or stop having fun (which usually go hand in hand).

I am against changing the novice championship. There needs to be a logical progression to allow people to have fun and move up, which I think there is. If someone is clearly staying novice and smoking everyone's shit year after year, then that is sandbagging. I don't think making someone move up after a few podiums is the answer though.

Don't get me wrong Dave, I fully agree with you on the primadonna aspect of racing. Slow racers with the fastest, coolest equipment are still slow racers. Rules should be written to prevent this kind of crap, ie spec 600 class maybe.

[sheispoison]

Here's my thoughts on spec 600 class. I really like the idea of it. The idea of the class is to make it cheaper to race and level the playing field right? The major expense of road racing right now is tires. If I were to get a stock bike and go racing with the stock rear shock I would instantly double my tire bill. Stock suspension will simply eat rear tires for someone that weighs as much as me. If we did a stock 600 class I would like to see only 3 things being able to be changed- bodywork, DOT tires, and suspension. That's my $.02.

[loujr]

I don't understand how or why this happens. You start as a novice finish top 10 in points your an expert.....you can still race amateur classes until you finish top ten in points then no more amateur classes. So how are people still racing novice or amateur classes if they are doing well in these classes? Skipping rounds as to not be top ten in points? Does the Mra have a running record of who is no longer eligible for these classes? I personally would rather be the slowest fast guy than the fastest slow guy.....which I hope to be sooner than later...... :lol:

[graphite675]

I don't understand how or why this happens. You start as a novice finish top 10 in points your an expert.....you can still race amateur classes until you finish top ten in points then no more amateur classes. So how are people still racing novice or amateur classes if they are doing well in these classes? Skipping rounds as to not be top ten in points? Does the Mra have a running record of who is no longer eligible for these classes? I personally would rather be the slowest fast guy than the fastest slow guy.....which I hope to be sooner than later...... :lol:

I think it's as simple as not putting in your Novice hours and loosing your points?

.

[Clarkie]

I like the idea of a 600 spec class, FUSA tried to police their version of a close horsepower controlled 600 class with the dyno, but they didnt have Hot Carl so it should be easy to control, or really easy to cheat but club racers would never do that :lol:

[sheispoison]

If someone wants to cheat they're going to cheat. I would do my best to find it if a protest or tear down came up, but there are plenty of crafty mechanics out there that know how to hide it well. I'll do my best.
For me, I would feel like a total scoundrel if knew I was beating my competition by cheating, but I guess integrity isn't as high a virtue for everyone.

[sheispoison]

Skipping rounds as to not be top ten in points?

That's exactly what happens. Pretty lame.

[loujr]

At the end of the end of the day that cant feel good. That's not an accomplishment

[Clarkie]

The MRA President said you are only cheating if you get caught, I totally agree with you Carl, having integrity as a racer and a person is why I never cheated even though I was acused of cheating. It seems other board members feel differently about integrity vs cheating......as long as you dont get caught :roll:

[glenngsxr]

Let's not go down a rat hole here. This is not a cheating thread.


Let's break it down.

-The MRA has done a fantastic job of bringing in new racers. The novice grids are healthy from what I see. Not as huge as they used to be, but considering the economic conditions, not bad at all.

-The expert grids are small

-The overall concern (based on what DaveG is alluding to) is that there is incredibly high turnover in the club.

I'd say he's on to something.

My thoughts.....
1) Minimize the money battle
a. Limit the mods one can make in novice races. Reduce the amount of money one can pour into their novice effort.
b. Spec out some additional classes to allow more "equal" ground racing. Maybe this could be the new Amatuer definition.
2) Find a way to fight the tire war. Prices are outta control.
3) Leave the rest alone

[jmaher]

From a philosophical perspective, I have to greatly disagree with "a". I don't like telling people how they can spend their money. How do you monitor that? Do you limit the amount they can spend on a bike? Parts? Can a new racer buy a new race ready KTM RC8 yet someone else cannot spend the money to put equal parts onto a stock GSXR? That seems like a slippery slope.

Joe

[graphite675]

My thoughts.....
1) Minimize the money battle
a. Limit the mods one can make in novice races. Reduce the amount of money one can pour into their novice effort.
While that sounds like a good idea and I'm not completely against it that could be a double edged sword. You may loose people that already have modified bikes. For instance, I have upgraded suspension (not $$ Ohlins but not stock) If you come out and say you must run stock suspension I'm out because I am not going to go and spend money to purchase stock suspension and put it back on just to race novice. I think many folks have purchased former race/track bikes that have mods of some sort or another.


b. Spec out some additional classes to allow more "equal" ground racing. Maybe this could be the new Amatuer definition.
2) Find a way to fight the tire war. Prices are outta control.
I agree 100%. Tires are the biggest cost and it is getting out of control. I myself run the same tires for a couple of weekends. There is no way I could afford a new set every weekend much less multiple sets a day.

3) Leave the rest alone

[rforsythe]

The other problem with 'a' is there are already a bunch of modified bikes in circulation. If you started a spec class, I'm guessing the majority of the grid would have to scrap their ride and start over. Go around the pits at Pikes and see how many bikes you can find that have only modified bodywork, tires, and suspension, even in superstreet. Now granted you won't find any because most people have done a bunch of work to be in line with everyone else, or bought pre-prepped bikes.
(edit: graphite and I posted at about the same time, same idea)

I like the *idea* of a spec class. I don't think it would succeed in the MRA right now though. There is still a barrier to entry of having to basically go buy an unmolested street bike, and even 600's of different (newer) years will have a competitive advantage, so now we're back to spending more than the other guy. The reason the 250 class is so intriguing is because every bike is very nearly identical.

As for the tire thing, I don't know how to get production cost down on those. I'm running last year's new Michelin stock (saved me about $100/set) on an SV650 (gets about 2 weekends from a set) and it's still pricey, but better than you big bike guys blowing a wad on a new set of tires every weekend. I feel for you.

[glenngsxr]

From a philosophical perspective, I have to greatly disagree with "a". I don't like telling people how they can spend their money. How do you monitor that? Do you limit the amount they can spend on a bike? Parts? Can a new racer buy a new race ready KTM RC8 yet someone else cannot spend the money to put equal parts onto a stock GSXR? That seems like a slippery slope.

Joe

I hear ya, but I don't think the worry surrounds the rich, slow guy buying the RC8. His bike is nothing skill cannot overcome, which is what we are trying to emphasize and allow to flourish in the future (rather than going bankrupt before you get there).

Wasn't wanting to get into specific modification rules, but merely throwing out ideas.

Of course the other problem that comes up is all the used bikes that novices snatch up and race their first year. They are already modded for the most part.

Oh hell, let's just spec everything out and start over.

[loujr]

I don't think that people will ever stop making their bike the best they can....with or without staying within the rules. I do think that there should be something in place to prevent riders from racing classes intended as steping stones for new, and up coming riders. I think not completing novice hours intentionally should have a punishment. Simply taking points away so they can keep their novice status isn't helping them progress in the system. There is no way to prove an individual missed a round just to loose points, however if they show up the next season and start to dominate maybe some "encouragement" to progress to expert to allow the true novice racers a platform to compete against other novice racers??? It took me a couple seasons to become expert, but I only completed one full season as a novice and I wasn't points dodging. It was hard to get my umm sponsor (father) to realise racing was just as important to me as it was for him in the 80's and 90's. I grew up in tires at second creek and the hot tub in aspen....I want my son to have the same childhood memories. I do what I can for our club in the most positive manner I am able. If we minimize the rules and throw integrity away we all share what the Mra represents, as we all are a part of it good or bad.

[Teach]

This is all pretty interesting to read.. especially being a novice myself. Ill say right off that i like the idea of moving up after a certain number of podiums.
I would hate to be in a class where there are only 5 or so riders and ride alone the whole time. Then I may as well save money, do a track day and get the same thing out of it. I have way more fun when I'm dicing with somebody.
This is my 3rd year racing (not sure if I can even count my 1st with all the crashes and frustrations I encountered), but I am just now feeling like I am figuring out the art of "racing" a motorcycle (im still slow as sht). I have spent many hours talking with others, readng and I took the star school from which I learned a lot. I had to do alot of this on my owm because I love the sport and I want to imrove and learn.
Maybe if the MRA held classes similar to that to help refine racers skills and make them faster, as opposed to spending money on things that make the bike itself better. Re learning how to ride my bike was a very frustrating thing and Im sure other novices would appreciate the help.
I know we are told to ask help from others and its ok to talk to other racers, which I have absolutely no problem doing now after 2 years, but as a first year racer, it can be intimidating as hell asking experts for advice. Plus nobody wants to look like the dumbass, or maybe thats just me!
As for the trophies and such, I did think as a first year and even at the beginning of my second that those were the imporant things. To get a trophy would show I can race. Now my goal or focus isnt to get a podium.. but I get much more excited when I gain a second or spend my sprint race dicing with one other rider.
Now I just want to have confidance, improve my lap times and become a better rider, because now I know thats what will make me (a little) faster.

[Wayniac]

This thread has really progressed. I see the main problem being lack of racers at the expert level. I almost feel bad for the amount of fun I had racing NGTU. 39 riders made for a lot of passing from the second wave. I'm still not sure how the scoring works, or how I got 7th, even though I'm pretty sure I physically passed the guy who got second. But it was the funnest race of my whole life and isn't that why we're out here? Let's face it, most of us aren't getting the dream ride with Repsol Honda. We won't travel to exotic locations to sit on grids with our heroes and have cute paddock girls that piss off our wives hold umbrellas over our heads. So I think a 600 class is the way to go. The 250 class is good, but the bikes are too small IMHO. Don't impose mod rules, if the racer with a big budget wants to blow money on his ride than so be it. There are so many 600 out there and fairly cheap too. I know it's not the answer for lack of expert grid riders. But I think it would be a great idea for "fun" racing.

[rforsythe]

So I think a 600 class is the way to go. The 250 class is good, but the bikes are too small IMHO. Don't impose mod rules, if the racer with a big budget wants to blow money on his ride than so be it. There are so many 600 out there and fairly cheap too. I know it's not the answer for lack of expert grid riders. But I think it would be a great idea for "fun" racing.

Don't we already have those?
NGTU
NGTO (ride up, most of the grid is 600)
AGTU, AGTO (same thing)
MWSB (Expert 600 do anything to your bike class)

I'm curious, how many novices are licensed vs experts? Are smaller expert grids due to the fact that we just have more classes to ride and can "choose our bike" a bit more than the novices can?

[Pep620]

Since this thread I believe started with my protesting, or as I see it now my bitching and whining I'll throw in my thoughts.

First of all, I'll thank Dave for reminding me what I'm really racing for, simply to have fun. Whether starting up front or 2nd wave back row it's all smiles in my helmet. This is my 4th season technically but I only ran 2 weekends my 1st due to a lack of a bike and the season was cut short, 3 weekends endurance only my 2nd after coming out for the race school trackday and breaking a leg. 3 weekends at the end of last year of which 2 I ran NOV O and U. So a total of 8 weekends over 3 seasons, not a lot. Being able to run a full season this year and being legitimately "booted" to expert has been my goal since I started this madness. If some think of me as a "sandbagger" so be it, I personally don't feel like I'm an expert so I didn't ask to be and maybe denied, who knows. I admit that running up front feels damn good. In saying that I also enjoy starting in the back and picking through to catch the 1st wave, so I signed up to run AM O and U at PPIR and look forward to starting back row.

I do think the rules need to be looked at seasons end and I will attend the meeting and give my input for what it's worth. Until then just racing, learning, and the camaraderie that keeps me coming back. :D

[rybo]

Spec 600 has been in my mind for a couple of years now.

There was an article a couple of months ago in one of the motorcycle magazines about the rising costs of racing. I've copied a link to the article here along with a framework of a proposal for a spec 600 class.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/811/12426/Motorcycle-Article/Backmarker--Racing-Inflation.aspx

I would like to propose that we drop HW Supersport in 2013 in favor of a 600cc class that builds on the success of the N250 formula. In this class I would suggest that we strictly limit the development of the motorcycle in a couple of areas, creating hard limiting factors on the performance of the bike.

The following parts are to remain unmodified / stock - as delivered from the factory:

1) Intake system including - Air tubes, airbox, air filter, and all intake electronics. No electronic add-ons, kit ECU, quickshifters or tuners of any kind are allowed. If the bike comes from the factory with multiple fueling maps, any of the stock maps may be used.

2) Exhaust system must be fitted as delivered from the factory without modification.

3) Engine internals - All engine internals must remain as delivered from the factory.

I propose the specification of a STREET TIRE for the class. The goal of this is that the tire will become the limiting factor to the performance of the motorcycle, much like the front suspension is the limiting factor on the current N250.
Instead of a SPEC tire l I propose that we select ONE eligible tire model from EACH brand of tires. For Examples

Michelin Power Pure
Pirelli Diablo Rosso Corsa
Dunlop Q2
Bridgestone S20
Continential Road Attack

Other tires could be approved at the discretion of the board of directors, but that's a solid list of roughly equivalent tires from a variety of brands

All of these tires can be had on the open market (and from our current vendors for tires) for between $250 - $280 a set, which is cheaper than any of the available race tires at this time in 180/120

Support for the use of these tires and evidence that they do NOT pose a safety hazard in use:

1) Jason DiSalvo used a set of q2 tires at one of my trackdays last year on an essentially stock 1098S ducati and was within 2 seconds of the course record. The lap in which he went that fast was near the end of the day, after he had ridden the tires extensively at speed. I clocked about 10 of his laps in a row and on that bike, with that tire he would have been a podium finisher in any ROR race we held at HPR last season.

2) The street tires today are better than the race tires we had available less then 10 years ago

3) The use of street tires further reduces the cost of racing by eliminating the need for tire warmers and thus generators

4) The use of these tires for the "spec" class does not prevent the use of a full race tire in other classes - in fact it will make those tires last longer since they will not be on the bike full time.

Parts that can be changed / modified with parts from unlimited origin

1) Bodywork
2) Brake Lines
3) Fluids
4) Handlebars / Footrests
5) Chain / Sprockets
6) Brake Pads


crazy, i know....it'll never work.


Some items that I think remain open to discussion:

Suspension- - It might make sense to allow the use of an aftermarket shock / valving on the spec bikes because proper suspension greatly improves tire life (and in the long term reduces cost). I would think that we could prohibit the use of fork cartridges, however, and limit the modification to replacement valving / tuning in the fork.

PowerCommander / alternate maps: Again - I think this is an area where if the bike runs well due to good mapping it might be possible that the bike lasts longer as a result. Somehow we would have to be able to police this so that things like traction control aren't slipping in.



I think this could also mark the return of real manufacturer contingency dollars to the sport. If these bikes were raced, pretty much as produced, I would think that this would be an area where manufacturers might be willing to place real contingency dollars out there to prove that their bike is the best.

Thoughts?

[rforsythe]

How do address the pretty big improvements on a new(er) 600 compared to old ones? A bone stock 2001 GSXR600 is going to get its ass handed to it when pitted against one from the past few years with equal riders. Of course a fast guy on an old bike will still probably beat a slow guy on a new one, but the model year differences alone mean it isn't a spec class so much as a 600 Production class. If you want it to be spec, then the bikes need to be on equal terms as well.

[rybo]

If there are going to be contingency dollars involved then the winning bikes are going to be pretty modern anyways.

We have a class for 2001 GSXR's - it's called modern vintage.

[rforsythe]

Then what you're proposing isn't a "ride spec 600's to save money" class, it's a "buy the newest thing you can to compete", easily doubling the cost of a motorcycle compared to older ones. So it's basically just a highly constrained MWSS. What am I missing in your plan that makes it not that?

[Clarkie]

A couple of things Rybo, a stock bike with stock catalytic converter will run very hot and cause damage on some bikes at race speeds. Stock forks and shock can be revalved but externally will look stock and the stock spring rates may cause a danger to some bike/rider combos. We both know a guy who can make a stock shock perform almost as good as a fancy shock.

The idea of a spec class is great, but as was mentioned by Ralph the year and brand of the bike will dictate the class. Instead of racing a $3000 older 600 it will turn into a money race.

[Kingpin]

Okay, time to chime in.

1st of all I don't think our formula is broken, it may need a few minor tweaks, but not broken. Our club IS still in business in this tough economy while many other clubs have folded.

2nd, I don't think the answer is a spec 600 class. As mentioned before probably too hard to police, and too many bikes already out there will not meet the rules.

3rd, We need to try and keep it fun for the racer, and safe.
In my opinion, that is the number one thing.

Sure racing is super expensive, and the days of good contingency are long gone. With this tough economy folks are looking at racing a little different, and yes it is very hard to race forever. (Ricky-Dan are a few exceptions..) The average stay of a racer I think is only 3 years, so what we are looking at is somewhat of a normal cycle.

Okay, now let's talk about the Novice-Expert thing.
Overall our rules are not that out of bounds, but we may want to look into who is on the podium for novice and amateur.

If there is a Novice that is tearing it up and really, really good then sure offer them a chance to move up to expert during the year and not wait.
Otherwise, in my opinion let the Novice learn. Learn how to start, learn how to pass, learn how to race close and not get freaked out. This is why we have a Novice license.

Next, it's also about seat time. There are some Novice racers that only race 1 or 2 races a weekend. So after 7 to 14 races they may get bumped to expert. Other Novice racers race 4 or 5 races a weekend. Now in 1 year they have around 30 races under their belt. They may be more comfortable in the move up that the guy that did not race a bunch.

The racer should want to be moved up, and be a safe enough rider to do it. (Hold their lines, not get freaked out etc...)


The amateur class is perfect to fill that gap of Novice expert and is doing what it is suppose to. Designed for fast Novice and slower-medium level expert racers. When folks start to podium in Amateur then sure there should be rule where they are not allowed to hang out there forever. (And we do have that now). (Top 5 experts only)

The REAL issue is in the next bump. When you have graduated from Novice and Amateur then only can race in Expert only classes is where it may not be as much fun anymore for the racer. Sometimes depending on the class the gap is very large.

As far as ROR goes, this year is a bit different. I can name almost 10 racers that are no presently competing due to injuries or moving on to try the next AMA level. These guys were on our grids last year and yes they were smoking fast, so currently some of our expert grids are light.

I guess where I am going is that in the end it is up to the racer to decide where they want to go in the sport. They can buy a superbike and try for a top 10 plate and see how far their talent will take them. Or they can race something else (Lightweight, twin, etc...and still be competitive just not the fastest guy!) In the end if the racer cannot make it fun they will quit. So some guys may have to adjust their program to keep it fun.

[LordLosh]

KingPin i think you missed the point (I did too when reading over this) Point is there is no reason for a novice rider to bump up other then to challenge himself. So what top 5 guys in novice take podium each race and win overall points. they don't and cant bump up unless they do their 4 hours. So they don't and they stay in novice another year and keep winning and keep getting money.
I felt like his point was why is there contingency and pay outs in a class built around learning & fun? I agree while it would be awesome to get paid or win some money me being a true Novice I would be more excited and happy to just win or place. money means nothing to me.

[T Baggins]

The MRA President said you are only cheating if you get caught, I totally agree with you Carl, having integrity as a racer and a person is why I never cheated even though I was acused of cheating. It seems other board members feel differently about integrity vs cheating......as long as you dont get caught :roll:

1) Why does it always have to come back to cheating for you Clarkie? Haven't you beaten that dead horse enough? Every thread in the forums has you making some reference to cheating in our club - even when the discussion has NOTHING to do with that. You didn't cheat, you were fast. Great, good for you.

2) My comment about "it ain't cheating if you don't get caught" was completely tongue in cheek - and full of sarcasm in that thread. It was obvious that I was joking, anyone could see that.

Please stop painting me as someone who actually believes it is OK to cheat. You are not accurate in your statements, and I don't appreciate you questioning my integrity.

[Clarkie]

Exactly Tony, perception can be seen as reality by some people which is shown by your reply, because I didnt have a smiley face in my post you decided I was being serious. You were wrong :wink:

Your post could be seen as you being serious, while you joke around about things others can't? Do as you say and not a you do?

[T Baggins]

I draw the line at questioning someone's integrity, smiley face or not.

My bad if you were joking.

I'm not.

[Clarkie]

LMAO I never questioned your integrity Tony, but obviously that is your perception Mr president this is your sandbox so your rules so I will never quote or refer to you on this forum again :lol:

[dave.gallant]

Sorry I missed out on so much fun; I have been trying to figure out how to install a headlight so I can race Superstreet this weekend at PPIR.

What I get so far:

1) This sport is too fricken expensive for most mortals.

Glenn C actually pointed out a few things that made me stop and say "hmmmmm...it may be that we can't retain experts and not a novice-specific problem per say..."

2) I learned that winning a novice trophy is more valuable than an expert one because of the investment it would take to get an expert one outweighs the benefit. "No one else knows the difference between the two...", and since we only expect someone to race for 3 years or so, this is the new "normal".

3) I learned that Rybo (and Tony) has some damn good ideas. (I bet it is because of the narcotics he is now taking regularly)

4) I learned that Clarkie is a cheating son of a butch and should be kicked in the nads. (or, the "nad". not sure what is still left on that poor bastard after his body-superbike-modifications)

Anyways, the guys at Shinko said they would give me a free set of tires if I could be the fastest novice. I told them I could do one better; I could be the fastest track day guy! That was good enough for both of us. I mean, no one knows the difference anyways, right?







(And while I am always sarcastic and generally annoying in my ways, this is a great thread with lots of great ideas. Thanks for the input guys.)

[JWinter]

Simple solution to the novice problem: No novice is allowed to collect contingency until they have completed their 4 hours of community service.
Sorry, I hate to be captain obvious with that statement.

or cut out contingency all together for Nov classes (which I don't recommend).


Jeff

[dave.gallant]

Or, how about this (you are all gonna hate this one):

Don't change anything from what we have now, except let non-ROR experts race in the Novice class (if they choose).

Contingency goes to those who can win it, and judging from the times novices would get some schooling from the-same-speed-riders-they-are-racing-now (just with different colored number plates). Moving up to expert would not be such a painful experience because, well heck, they are racing most of the same people anyways. This may help distribute the riders more evenly across the classes given the motivation that everyone wants to win a trophy and be competitive somewhere.

Side Note:

Some people may not feel like "experts", but by going by Tony's explanation of an expert, we would only have 3 experts in the whole club.

In my not-so-humble-opinion: If you can hold your line (not weave about like a weeble-wobble or dart for the apex), understand the race day procedure and flags in and out, and are within a reasonable speed delta of the front runners of the class, your sandbagging novice butt should be racing in the expert classes. Novice is a place to learn the trade; expert classes are where you hone your skill. (ROR is where you spend the wad.).

Mr Brown can speak better to this, but the fact that our new novices are going faster and crashing less means he (Brownie) is doing a spectacular job.

[glenngsxr]

Or.....
Get rid of all these funky definitions and break every one up by lap times. The top third are experts, middle third are amateurs, bottom third are novice. Grids would become proportionate and you always have some "like-speeded" people to race with. :D

[Teach]

Or.....
Get rid of all these funky definitions and break every one up by lap times. The top third are experts, middle third are amateurs, bottom third are novice. Grids would become proportionate and you always have some "like-speeded" people to race with. :D

I like this idea..

[sheispoison]

Or.....
Get rid of all these funky definitions and break every one up by lap times. The top third are experts, middle third are amateurs, bottom third are novice. Grids would become proportionate and you always have some "like-speeded" people to race with. :D
So, less classes and qualifying for all the classes... Hmmmm...

[LordLosh]

Or.....
Get rid of all these funky definitions and break every one up by lap times. The top third are experts, middle third are amateurs, bottom third are novice. Grids would become proportionate and you always have some "like-speeded" people to race with. :D

I vote this *10000. Everyone always says how fun it is when you are battling with some one just as fast or a little faster then you so.....
If its to hard to impliment We should do this as a race people could enter, and label it as such all the "Experts" biased on their times would go then amateurs would race then novices. no bikes limits or rules needed because everything comes down to your lap times anyways?

[T Baggins]

Is this not just Amateur GTO with a new name?

[jeff healy]

Pretty much but with qualifying

[T Baggins]

Does not the current system of gridding people by points pretty much "qualify them" - (with few exceptions of course...) - or more directly - put them on the track with riders of similar skill (regardless of bike type or modification)?

I'm all for solving the attrition problem, but simply renaming something isn't going to do it imo...

[JimWilson29]

Or.....
Get rid of all these funky definitions and break every one up by lap times. The top third are experts, middle third are amateurs, bottom third are novice. Grids would become proportionate and you always have some "like-speeded" people to race with. :D

What about those experts that are riding little bikes like 250's? This would make them novices.

[dave.gallant]

If we want qualifying and unlimited rules, there is an easier solution:

STOP RIDING NOVICE AND START RIDING ROR.

WTF people. :shock:

We have 5 MWSS bikes gridded up and 30,246 novice & amateur bikes gridded up. How can we spread the love? Are we really becoming the Novice Superbike club I was told we had become?

[rforsythe]

Or.....
Get rid of all these funky definitions and break every one up by lap times. The top third are experts, middle third are amateurs, bottom third are novice. Grids would become proportionate and you always have some "like-speeded" people to race with. :D

What about those experts that are riding little bikes like 250's? This would make them novices.

Or experts on bigger bikes having an off day. You gonna make them replate?

Being super speedy has never been a pass/fail criteria for white plates. If the goal is just to promote the quick novices in a timely manner than solve that for what it is, but don't tell experts that they're suddenly not cool enough to wear white after labor day or I guarantee the grids will shrink even more.

[jeff healy]

If we want qualifying and unlimited rules, there is an easier solution:

STOP RIDING NOVICE AND START RIDING ROR.

WTF people. :shock:

We have 5 MWSS bikes gridded up and 30,246 novice & amateur bikes gridded up. How can we spread the love? Are we really becoming the Novice Superbike club I was told we had become?

=D> =D> =D> :!:

[jeff healy]

And BTW guys I won money in my first ROR race last round and I'm slow as F*!k so just do it! Otherwise I'm gonna keep taking the free money!

[rybo]

I've had several updated thoughts to my original proposal regarding a "spec" 600 class.



I followed up on Aaron's suggestion that the catalytic converters in stock exhaust systems might cause a problem and confirmed with a couple of bodywork mfg's that they don't design their race bodywork to accommodate this part. As such I propose that a slip-on system (only) would be acceptable for the spec class - using stock headers only.


Furthermore I've considered Ralph's comment regarding the older bikes being at a significant disadvantage compared to the newer bikes.

First: If (and it's a big if) we can convince manufacturers to start paying significant contingency in the class we have a pipeline for newer bikes to enter the paddock. There are lots of people who used to buy a new bike every other season in order to stay competitive in the contingency running. Most of those people are hanging on to their bikes these days because there is no incentive to buy a new bike. This has dried up some of the bike stream for incoming racers, meaning that the crop of available used racebikes are older and older each season. This makes the barrier to entry for new riders higher as they either have to buy a bike and convert it or buy a bike that is thrashed and do significant work to get it up to speed.

Second: In order to allow more bikes in the class (at least initially) what if the rules allowed bikes that were "Modern Vintage" legal to also race in the class with "superbike" modifications, but they still had to use the spec tire? These bikes would likely not be eligible for contingency - but would add to the grid size and might make for an interesting race.


Scott

[Clarkie]

Scott I agree a slip-on would be an easy/cheap modification, would be easy to police and most bikes wouldnt require fueling changes (ie. Powercommander, Bazzaz, etc) to ensure the motor longevity. I think the 'being easy to police' part of this is important for the club/tech inspection to keep in mind. Ideas for new/different/more or less strict rules are great but they have to be realistic for the club to enforce and police, by this I mean the time involved and the financial cost to the club to police them.

[HAMMER]

you all need 250s and " learn to turn " spec racing is fuuuunnnnnnn

[Fastt Racing]

=D> Hammer

I've heard a lot of debates about how to get more people into any kind of racing. The answer is: Don't vote for communist presidents, and market our club to every person on the planet with 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 eyes (for safety, not to discriminate). Encourage everyone to have FUN! That's about all you can really do.

I would think that a few less expert classes would help to create larger more fun grids with other guys your speed to race against.

Spec racing is fun, and I would put some street tires on my wheels and yank the quickshifter, and go racing this weekend, and be competitive on my 2006 machine! My exhaust cat is up for debate on allowable mods with the slip on. I can't think of many other racers bikes that currently fit into these tight rules but they would appear over a short time.

I don't really think there is a problem with the Novice class! Maybe move up Top 5 instead of Top 10, and do some kind of points progression for the others to move a few more proficient novices into more races sooner IF THEY WANT TO MOVE UP.

EDIT: P.S. Bracket racing is for merry little fellas that don't have skills and like going in a straight line with throttle stop computers IMO.

[lars]

you all need 250s and " learn to turn " spec racing is fuuuunnnnnnn

^ I concur
http://denver.craigslist.org/mcy/3014900112.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/mcy/3013197374.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/mcy/2962943684.html

It is awesome^
it would be so fun having 20+ 2fiddy's out there

[The GECCO]

If you want bigger grids, have less classes. It's that simple. Stop creating niche classes. Instead, give more people incentive to come participate in the classes that are the core of every amateur club:

Lightweight SB/GP
Middleweight SS/SB
Open SS/SB
Twins
Endurance
Run-whatcha-brung premier class


As for the Novice/Expert issue, there are two solutions:

1) Have EVERY race run as first wave=experts and second wave=novices, or

2) Have a SINGLE novice class that is similar in nature to the Sportsman class of a few years ago. No points, no championship, early markout. Could be combined with or replaced by a SuperStreet type program.

What's the added incentive to participate? Fewer classes means:
- Larger grids which is more entertaining racing for both participant and spectator
- The race program is trimmed down enough such that it can be run in a single day and every weekend can be a double header. This means more racing for the participant each weekend AND less penalty for a crash/dnf as far as championships go. This means people won't quit after a single DNF puts them mathematically out of contention.

While the 250 'niche' class is a success in that the grids are decent size, did it really being in more members? Or did it cause existing members to add a 250 to their garage? And why is THAT the only class that gets run as a double header at each event? Would it be as popular if that weren't the case?

There are about eleventy-billion riders out there on either a 600cc or 1000cc inline-4. How many of them WOULD race if there was more bang for their buck in the form of more track time and more entertainment? Why not create a BETTER product for the masses, rather than chasing a miniscule part of the population by creating niche classes that take up too much time in the program.

I brought this general idea up a while back HERE (http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=11664&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=) but it didn't get much traction.

[sheispoison]

I've heard a lot of debates about how to get more people into any kind of racing. The answer is: Don't vote for communist presidents, ...

EDIT: P.S. Bracket racing is for gay dudes that don't have skills and like going in a straight line with throttle stop computers IMO.

Another way might also be to keep your political beliefs to and your blatent homophobia to yourself.

[loujr]

:shock:

[loujr]

Another way might also be to keep your political beliefs to and your blatent homophobia to yourself.


He can't help being "fabulous" :shock:

[nobasin]

=D>
I've heard a lot of debates about how to get more people into any kind of racing. The answer is: Don't vote for communist presidents, and
EDIT: P.S. Bracket racing is for gay dudes that don't have skills and like going in a straight line with throttle stop computers IMO.

yes, because nothing says "welcome to the club" like spouting conspiracy theories and a little gay bashing.

dennis, we hear your obvious cry for help. :-) it is normal to project your feelings of self loathing onto others and it must be incredibly difficult to be a communist homosexual when we live in a society where there are still people who are not accepting of other peoples political views or sexual orientation.

but i can tell you the mra is accepting of racers of all stripes and colors, so don't be ashamed. plus, i'm guessing you are the fastest gay communist in the club, so you should be proud of who you are and the accomplishments you've achieved as a person, regardless of political affiliation or sexual orientation.

[rforsythe]

This was a good thread until the last 5 replies. :(

[nobasin]

This was a good thread until the last 5 replies. :(

...and now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[rforsythe]

I had spoken to Rybo offline in some detail about the 600 spec racing idea as well, and now that I understand where his head is (narc'd up, but that's beside the point) and we talked through a couple theories, I think it could work.

If there's money on the line, fast guys will show up on new(er) bikes that qualify for it. This makes sense, even in a class designed to limit the impact of one's fat wallet. I know I certainly would do that if it were legal and I thought I'd be in the contingency-level positions.

That said, it does somewhat of a disservice to people who want to go race an older bike, as they will have a performance disadvantage in multiple areas. So I like the idea that a vintage-legal bike would be allowed to race under SB motor rules or something related to it (still within the 'spec tire type' rules, which will be a great equalizer for corner speeds). This would allow these older disadvantaged machines to run on par with newer bikes and not get walked on the straights. It would also let people that (a) either already have these older bikes or (b) can build one for less money than a newish one would cost (stop laughing) race the class, and have 'spec' mean something. There's also nothing preventing someone from gridding up an old 600 with a stock motor and racing on the cheap.

Unless we limit it to one specific bike or a small subset known to be performance equals, the bike part of it is hard to make true 'spec'. But if we think of spec as a performance definition rather than a manufacturing doctrine, it would make for some damn interesting racing.

[dave.gallant]

How about we don't add any classes, don't call it "spec" racing, and add one small item to an existing category:

SUPERSPORT (MW/HW/OP) -- Current rules apply but with this addition:

Any motorcycle 5 years or older than current race season is allowed the following modifications:

Unlimited chassis, suspension, intake, and ECU modifications
OEM wheels only (no mag/carbon/etc)
Unlimited motor modifications except the following:
NO OVERBORE ALLOWANCE
NO FORCED INDUCTION

DOT tires required for everyone

Contingency (manufacturer and other) rules apply as standard. (Meaning a 2006 R6 will not win Yamaha $, but can race the event)

A novice running a superbike (but not new model year superbike) is then eligible for a bunch of Saturday races without changing a thing. People who can't afford to update every other year to a new bike may be able to squeeze a few more years out of the bike through highly-illegal-for-supersport (but-still-done-by-some) modifications and keep the bike on the grid.

Those who are chasing $ on the latest equipment will continue to have the fastest motorcycle with the latest technology. But instead of just 4 bikes on the grid, there may be a few more.

[NossLou]

:shock:

[rforsythe]

How about we don't add any classes, don't call it "spec" racing, and add one small item to an existing category:

SUPERSPORT (MW/HW/OP) -- Current rules apply but with this addition:

Any motorcycle 5 years or older than current race season is allowed the following modifications:

Unlimited chassis, suspension, intake, and ECU modifications
OEM wheels only (no mag/carbon/etc)
Unlimited motor modifications except the following:
NO OVERBORE ALLOWANCE
NO FORCED INDUCTION

DOT tires required for everyone

Contingency (manufacturer and other) rules apply as standard. (Meaning a 2006 R6 will not win Yamaha $, but can race the event)

A novice running a superbike (but not new model year superbike) is then eligible for a bunch of Saturday races without changing a thing. People who can't afford to update every other year to a new bike may be able to squeeze a few more years out of the bike through highly-illegal-for-supersport (but-still-done-by-some) modifications and keep the bike on the grid.

Those who are chasing $ on the latest equipment will continue to have the fastest motorcycle with the latest technology. But instead of just 4 bikes on the grid, there may be a few more.

Not quite the same idea, but this has merit too.

[Fastt Racing]

I appologize for the comment about the happy little non competitive spirited types of guys that seem to be attracted to the "let's make everyone equal at the end of the day, so that there are no winners" bracket racing philosophy. They should do track days in my opinion. I did not have any intention of hurting the feelings of those of you in the homosexual community. Please accept my sincere appology for my inconsiderate comparison. Post has been edited to more accurately describe the reference.

[KFinn]

Dennis - I am offended by your edited post. Leprechauns are merry little fellows too!












:P

[Fastt Racing]

Somehow I knew you would respond to the stick your foot in your mouth post Kevin, hahaha. Thanks. I'm trying to get out from under the bus buddy.

[loujr]

I'm trying to get out from under the bus buddy.


It's ok....your still fabulous!!!

[JimWilson29]

Dennis - I am offended by your edited post. Leprechauns are merry little fellows too!

:P


http://cdn.randomfunnypicture.com/pictures/424609b26b212bd6d3e28a4b9dbdfec2ff6.jpg

[Fastt Racing]

Thanks Lou, you're still a dick. :lol:

You and your pops coming out to PPIR or what? See you soon dude.

[loujr]

Thanks Lou, you're still a dick. :lol:

You and your pops coming out to PPIR or what? See you soon dude.

I try 8)

I'll be at hpr for round 3...not going to make ppir

[tomtom]

Pictures tell a lot, not to diss any preious thoughts, but here are some things that might help...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdQ9T1MVPlQ

'points' to me are under-rated, b/c the value of them seems to be thought of as gems got from Norse like plundering; and too easily had in many situations.

[dave.gallant]

Pictures tell a lot, not to diss any preious thoughts, but here are some things that might help...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdQ9T1MVPlQ

'points' to me are under-rated, b/c the value of them seems to be thought of as gems got from Norse like plundering; and too easily had in many situations.

The guy that won that race is pretty damn quick. I want to see him race ROR sooner rather than later... :)

(cool video btw. That is a fun section of the track.)

[dave.gallant]

Pictures tell a lot, not to diss any preious thoughts, but here are some things that might help...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdQ9T1MVPlQ

'points' to me are under-rated, b/c the value of them seems to be thought of as gems got from Norse like plundering; and too easily had in many situations.

The guy that won that race is pretty damn quick. I want to see him race ROR sooner rather than later... :)

(cool video btw. That is a fun section of the track.)

And just so we are all clear after your 'WTF!?!? WHY IS THERE AN EXPERT IN MY RACE" comment in your video:

If you seriously have not read the rulebook nor understand how I was in that race that you videoed, this entire thread is dedicated to you. I had a form waiting for you in my pits this weekend and am disappointed in your conviction.

Try harder.

[tomtom]

Yes Dave, I do understand the how and why. I won't protest you b/c you're showing us what is really going on, and not sandbagging. Glad you like the vid.

[rforsythe]

[quote=dave.gallant]
If you seriously have not read the rulebook

Take a show of hands at the next riders meeting, I'm guessing most people that aren't current/former MRA Board have not actually read it front to back.

Maybe we should give novices a credit on their hours if they can pass a quiz... :twisted:

[T Baggins]

Yes Dave, I do understand the how and why. I won't protest you b/c you're showing us what is really going on, and not sandbagging. Glad you like the vid.

That 469 novice guy was pretty damn fast too! He learned all of that from following me around in 250 Prod I'm sure... lol

[dave.gallant]

Yes Dave, I do understand the how and why. I won't protest you b/c you're showing us what is really going on, and not sandbagging. Glad you like the vid.

Then you are my Buddha of Roadracing and I give you praise!!

(But I won't rub your belly for good luck. That would just be plain weird.)